Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

I would think it is the duty of parents to try to share their wisdom, accumulated over their lifetime, with their children to give them a good start in making up their own minds.

That didn't actually answer the question but thanks anyway.

Practically everybody thinks in the manner you've just described, dont they?

[Nearly Sane]

I would think it is the duty of parents to try to share their wisdom, accumulated over their lifetime, with their children to give them a good start in making up their own minds.

So it would be correct in your view for Leonard, should be hypothetically have a kid, to bring it up with his wisdom that you and other theists are just very gullible?

[Nearly Sane]

The fact is, Alan, that the majority of parents can't stop their children making up their own minds, rather than "allow" them to. The indoctrination is done unknowingly in bringing them up to a religious belief.

As I have mentioned many times already, every society should make sure their children are taught morality quite independently of religion.

Indoctrinated in morality?

[Alan Burns]

Surely you have to very gullible to believe that some "spirit" is directing your thoughts?

I would think it more guilible to assume that your thoughts are just reactions in the chain of deterministic "cause and effect" events.

[Shaker]

You go into St Pete's and one of the first things you see is Michelangelo's Pieta. It's beautiful, simply, a physical paen to the love of a mother for a son. It is slightly larger than life. Further up there is a statue of the eponymous saint. It isn't a very good one but it too is slightly larger than life.

All around are other statues of Popes, these are huge, baroque, overbearing. Symbols of human power and arrogance, metal boasts of wealth and patronage. You look at them and see one of the main points of the Reformation.

I recall that Christopher Hitchens once described himself as a Protestant atheist, perhaps for the same reasons as you've outlined.

I've never really thought about it in such terms, but now that you've raised it, I am aware that I find Catholic churches, especially of the traditional type, ugly in a gaudy, showy, we would now say chavvy sense. Too much bling - gold everywhere, gaudily painted plaster statues. To my sensibilities at least this:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/448fbb05d87848c3a486b84a064043f1/interior-of-a-catholic-church-bgda8p.jpg

looks cluttered, fussy and self-consciously show-offy (never mind everything else you said about it being a willy-waving statement of temporal power and wealth), whereas this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/13/02/6b/13026b4ca185c27b8f2d7d86245b0561.jpg

seems the opposite - clean lines, pure colours, simple. I feel the same way about Gloucester Cathedral, by far my favourite of the many I've visited so far:

http://www.centralhotelgloucester.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/GC1.jpg

and not this assault on the eyes:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/St._Louis_Cathedral_Basilica_Main_Isle.jpg

This is a surprise to me as domestically I'm very far indeed from liking minimalism; it's just that the latter building looks minimal in a good way - if you're supposed to be there to worship God, then God is presumably what you're supposed to be concentrating on, not the gaudy tat up at the far end.

[Nearly Sane]

I would think it more guilible to assume that your thoughts are just reactions in the chain of deterministic "cause and effect" events.

(A) Leonard doesn't believe that and he's made it quite clear frequently that he doesn't and (B) no one who you have had the discussions on here has made that assumption which shows you haven't even understood the arguments enough to avoid misrepresenting them, and (C) you have had this pointed out to you in the past so why do you keep misrepresenting people?

[ippy]

Most families I know of will allow their children to make up their own minds when they are old enough to reason.  I do not see this as indoctrination.

What worries me is that so many young people are growing up without any real knowledge of God, so they will have nothing on which to make their minds up.  I recently came across a statistic which showed that a substantial percentage of children (I can't remember the exact figure) did not know why we celebrate Christmas.

What worries me is when so many of the very young children, some are indoctrinated with the various religions some intentionally, some not intentionally but as a non-religious person I will confess to indoctrinating my children to think for themselves, especially at that very young age before they have acquired the ability to challenge, the age where the usual run of the mill religionist specialises in spreading the word, very often starting with a nativity play for the very youngest of the young school children, (Yes I know, "that's ridiculous it's just a nativity play), well I don't see it like that I see it as the most usual starting point.   

There's plenty of time to make up their minds after this age of around seven years old where most children have, on average, acquired the ability to challenge.

ippy

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I would think it more guilible to assume that your thoughts are just reactions in the chain of deterministic "cause and effect" events.

Then you would think wrongly, for reasons that have been explained to you now many, many, many times.

Any news by the way on how you think primary school children can "freely" make religious choices when they attend religious schools?

[Leonard James]

Indoctrinated in morality?

In the same way that they are taught maths. Is that indoctrination?

[Rhiannon]

I recall that Christopher Hitchens once described himself as a Protestant atheist, perhaps for the same reasons as you've outlined.

I've never really thought about it in such terms, but now that you've raised it, I am aware that I find Catholic churches, especially of the traditional type, ugly in a gaudy, showy, we would now say chavvy sense. Too much bling - gold everywhere, gaudily painted plaster statues. To my sensibilities at least this:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/448fbb05d87848c3a486b84a064043f1/interior-of-a-catholic-church-bgda8p.jpg

looks cluttered, fussy and self-consciously show-offy (never mind everything else you said about it being a willy-waving statement of temporal power and wealth), whereas this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/13/02/6b/13026b4ca185c27b8f2d7d86245b0561.jpg

seems the opposite - clean lines, pure colours, simple.

This is a surprise to me as domestically I'm very far indeed from liking minimalism; it's just that the latter building looks minimal in a good way - if you're supposed to be there to worship God, then God is presumably what you're supposed to be concentrating on, not the gaudy tat up at the far end.

Worth a look.

http://uk.phaidon.com/store/architecture/sacred-spaces-9780714868950/

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

I recall that Christopher Hitchens once described himself as a Protestant atheist, perhaps for the same reasons as you've outlined.

I've never really thought about it in such terms, but now that you've raised it, I am aware that I find Catholic churches, especially of the traditional type, ugly in a gaudy, showy, we would now say chavvy sense. Too much bling - gold everywhere, gaudily painted plaster statues. To my sensibilities at least this:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/448fbb05d87848c3a486b84a064043f1/interior-of-a-catholic-church-bgda8p.jpg

looks cluttered, fussy and self-consciously show-offy (never mind everything else you said about it being a willy-waving statement of temporal power and wealth), whereas this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/13/02/6b/13026b4ca185c27b8f2d7d86245b0561.jpg

seems the opposite - clean lines, pure colours, simple. I feel the same way about Gloucester Cathedral, by far my favourite of the many I've visited so far:

http://www.centralhotelgloucester.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/GC1.jpg

This is a surprise to me as domestically I'm very far indeed from liking minimalism; it's just that the latter building looks minimal in a good way - if you're supposed to be there to worship God, then God is presumably what you're supposed to be concentrating on, not the gaudy tat up at the far end.

So if IKEA opened a church then...? 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Len,

In the same way that they are taught maths. Is that indoctrination?

No. Maths is a method; religion is (faux) facts.

[torridon]

I would think it is the duty of parents to try to share their wisdom, accumulated over their lifetime, with their children to give them a good start in making up their own minds.

Teach them how to think, not what to think then ?

That would be good, value critical reasoning over faith, there's hope for you yet 

[Leonard James]

I would think it more guilible to assume that your thoughts are just reactions in the chain of deterministic "cause and effect" events.

I don't assume any such thing! My thoughts can, and do at times, dwell on things I have never experienced or heard of ... just as most fiction writers minds do.

[ippy]

All I can say is that my posts all make perfect sense to me.  I am sorry that you can't see.

Most people can spot "potty" quite easily.

ippy 

[Shaker]

Worth a look.

http://uk.phaidon.com/store/architecture/sacred-spaces-9780714868950/

Thank you

It's unlikely that many people here will have seen Ingmar Bergman's Winter Light but it's one of my all-time favourite films (possibly Bergman's best, more so even than The Seventh Seal). The church in Winter Light is the sort of thing I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6_0KlpK6I

I'd probably advise people suffering from depression to give this one a miss as it's relentlessly bleak first frame to last, but I like bleak

[Nearly Sane]

The remarks about being a Catholic atheist are somewhat tongue in cheek based on growing up in a culture in the West of Scotland where it is just the same as being asked ' But are you a Rangers Partick Thistle fan or a Celtic Partick Thistle fan?'.



 I don't consider myself any such thing. The St Peter's experience is just based on the distallation of feeling created between the contrast from something as beautiful as the Pieta and the willy waving surrounding it. If it doesn't have that idea of how down to the Lordy High Popealicious,the bling doesn't bother me. Sometimes what might be seen as chavvy is rescued by the simplicity of belief, it's only the power crazed bits that make my atheism schismatic.

[Leonard James]

Len,

No. Maths is a method; religion is (faux) facts.

I'm sorry, Blue, but I don't see any difference in teaching children that it is wrong to steal, and teaching them that 2+2=4.

However, I admit that may be because I have not learned the difference (if there is one).

[torridon]

Dear Torridon,

Ape like mind, or have I got this evil lotion stuff wrong, again!!

Gonnagle.

It's not just our bodies that have evolved from earlier ancestors, so have our minds.  That is in essence the remit of science, to get us a glimpse of what is actually true by circumnavigating that legacy of human mental biases.

[Shaker]

Shakes,

So if IKEA opened a church then...? 

Probably would be too contemporary for me, architecturally, but you're along the right lines

[Nearly Sane]

In the same way that they are taught maths. Is that indoctrination?

Morality isn't maths. It isn't a set of facts.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm sorry, Blue, but I don't see any difference in teaching children that it is wrong to steal, and teaching them that 2+2=4.

However, I admit that may be because I have not learned the difference (if there is one).

There is. Though there are people who teach it is wrong to be homosexual who don't see the difference either.

[Leonard James]

Morality isn't maths. It isn't a set of facts.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

Nevertheless I think children should be taught morality as if it were fact.

[Nearly Sane]

Ah, I see. Thank you.

Nevertheless I think children should be taught morality as if it were fact.

That would be indoctrination then, surely?

[Leonard James]

That would be indoctrination then, surely?

I suppose so ... but a good one!