Searching for GOD...

[Enki]

Or they could be bullshit based on ignorance?

As for recommending a university academic daring to give us the Gen on what reality is.......If the antitheists around here shit themselves over words like philosophical materialism how are they going to manage half an hour of academia?

You are quite entitled to your opinions, as I am about yours.

As I haven't seen the series yet, I make no recommendations at all as to its usefulness. As far as the rest of your statement goes, it looks like some sort of tirade against antitheism and philosophical materialism again, something which you obviously feel very strongly about.  You're welcome to your views. Suffice it to say that as far as I understand your views, I don't share them. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker and Sane,

Thank you, two brilliant posts, not for being right ( not that you are wrong ) but for taking the time, this thread is full of one paragraph posts, or one sentence posts, it is something enki pointed out on this thread, it takes time, putting your message across properly takes time, time and energy.

Gonnagle.

[Sebastian Toe]

I wrote the 15000th post on it. Numbers are easy for me.

I got 16000th, and... the very last one. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=4750155&post=79618039#p79618039

[Shaker]

Great to have the link to the old place once more - I'm glad it's still around to peruse!

Blimey, nearly five years ago, and I'd been on for six years by the time it closed ... strewth 

One of the nicest things was to see so many familiar names - people who I remember (even if I'd forgotten that I remember them) who either went on to pastures new or who are still banging away here on R & E to this day 

[SusanDoris]

# 8691 Truly great post, Shaker.

Most definitely.

ETA That BBC 4 programme sounds interesting. It's no good my trying to peer at it - anyone know if there is a web site outlining the contents?

[Alan Burns]

First, my reply to Shaker:

The message of salvation is certainly what we want to hear, but the method of achieving it may not be to our liking.  In reading the bible, I get a great sense of underlying wisdom, but I recognise it as God's wisdom not human wisdom.

On the big question of suffering:

We can't choose reality.  We have to accept reality as it is.  Reality includes suffering, and every human being on this planet will have to endure some form of suffering in their lifetime.  When a Christian prays for God to take suffering away, God will answer the prayer in one of two ways.  He will either bring about a miraculous end to the suffering, or He will give the person strength and courage to endure it in order to bring about a greater good.  The suffering we endure either comes from the actions of others, or from some natural disaster in nature.  I am certain that God does not send suffering down on us of His own free will.

We can't pass judgement from outside.  It is easy to pick examples of other people's suffering and claim it should never have happened to them.  One of the books I mentioned in an earlier post - "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom, describes how Corrie and her family were arrested for hiding Jews in their house and sent to a concentration camp in Germany.  Her father and sister died in dreadful circumstances, but Corrie survived and tells an amazing story of how her Christian faith helped her through this terrible chapter of her life and lead on to greater things.  You would need to read the book to fully understand.  In another book, "Blessings" the author Mary Craig tells how having two handicapped children brought true blessings into her life and the lives of others and helped her to discover her Christian faith.  If you ever met Becky's husband, Andrew, he will witness to how God is helping him, his children and Becky through this ordeal.  Andrew has very strong faith, probably stronger than mine, and he knows God will see them through this.

And we remember that Jesus suffered too.  He prayed for it to be be taken away from Him, but was given the strength to endure it and bring about a greater good for all mankind.

As I said, we can't choose the reality we would like, but we have to accept it as it is, and with God's help we see true pupose in our existence and we will live to see a reality beyond our wildest dreams.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

First, my reply to Shaker:

The message of salvation is certainly what we want to hear, but the method of achieving it may not be to our liking.  In reading the bible, I get a great sense of underlying wisdom, but I recognise it as God's wisdom not human wisdom.

On the big question of suffering:

We can't choose reality.  We have to accept reality as it is.  Reality includes suffering, and every human being on this planet will have to endure some form of suffering in their lifetime.  When a Christian prays for God to take suffering away, God will answer the prayer in one of two ways.  He will either bring about a miraculous end to the suffering, or He will give the person strength and courage to endure it in order to bring about a greater good.  The suffering we endure either comes from the actions of others, or from some natural disaster in nature.  I am certain that God does not send suffering down on us of His own free will.

We can't pass judgement from outside.  It is easy to pick examples of other people's suffering and claim it should never have happened to them.  One of the books I mentioned in an earlier post - "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom, describes how Corrie and her family were arrested for hiding Jews in their house and sent to a concentration camp in Germany.  Her father and sister died in dreadful circumstances, but Corrie survived and tells an amazing story of how her Christian faith helped her through this terrible chapter of her life and lead on to greater things.  You would need to read the book to fully understand.  In another book, "Blessings" the author Mary Craig tells how having two handicapped children brought true blessings into her life and the lives of others and helped her to discover her Christian faith.  If you ever met Becky's husband, Andrew, he will witness to how God is helping him, his children and Becky through this ordeal.  Andrew has very strong faith, probably stronger than mine, and he knows God will see them through this.

And we remember that Jesus suffered too.  He prayed for it to be be taken away from Him, but was given the strength to endure it and bring about a greater good for all mankind.

As I said, we can't choose the reality we would like, but we have to accept it as it is, and with God's help we see true pupose in our existence and we will live to see a reality beyond our wildest dreams.

Shakes and NS each took the time to set out clearly and at length where your thinking is astray, and invited you to address the issues they highlighted. In reply you have completely ignored all that, and resorted instead to your standard speak your weight machine response of just repeating various articles of faith that you happen to hold.

While no-one doubts that you hold these beliefs sincerely, just asserting them again and again is entirely unpersuasive for anyone possessed of critical faculties. What you're being invited to do is not to regurgitate the mantra, but rather to consider why you think these things to be true - especially as the reasons you've provided so far at least have all been logically hopeless.

Could you at least try to turn you mind to that - not what you believe (we all know that), but why you believe it? 

[Alan Burns]

And my reply to NS:

I do plead guilty to sometimes jumping in with my replies without taking the time to fully understand what I am replying to.

My ideas about free will and consciousness came to me about forty years ago when I had a eureka moment in realising that whatever invokes a conscious choice is triggered by me and is not part of a pre determined chain reaction of events.  This led me to thinking about consciouness itself, and how my conscious awareness can perceive the contents of my brain cells at any moment in time.  The only way I could make sense of this was to realise that my spiritual soul must have some form of interaction with my brain to be able to perceive its contents and invoke my brain cells into initiating physical acts of free will.  I later read about how some quantum events can occur without any apparent cause, which would open up the possibility of our soul interacting with the molecules of our brain cells at the quantum level.

I do not claim these ideas to be true facts, and I have no method to show whether they can be true or not, but it is my attempt to explain the reality I perceive about my own existence.

I am not sure what you mean by the term "string free" in your post - can I assume it is something to do with string theory?  But I do recognise your conclusion that neurological experiments indicate that there is no real gap for free will.  The problem is that methodologically naturalistic investigations can't include anything of a spiritual nature, so if a spiritual soul does exist, it can't be discovered by such methods.

I find Hillside's idea that conscious awareness is an emergent propery not at all convincing, because emergent properties are just comprised of perceived patterns of bahaviour, and this "property" has can have no real presence in itself.

Perhaps I am being too ambitious to try to explain my perceptions of reality, for the Bible teaches that we should become as little children to be able to enter Heaven.  I am sure that God does not want us to dwell too much on what makes us work the way we do, but to simply accept that He loves us as a parent loves their children, and to put our faith and trust in Him.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Septic,

Cheers mate

I was trawling the net a couple of days ago looking for the old beeb, a blast from the past, we were all so innocent back then

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Perhaps I am being too ambitious to try to explain my perceptions of reality, for the Bible teaches that we should become as little children to be able to enter Heaven.  I am sure that God does not want us to dwell too much on what makes us work the way we do, but to simply accept that He loves us as a parent loves their children, and to put our faith and trust in Him.

Quite! Christianity is for children, not perceptive adults. 

[Alan Burns]

Could you at least try to turn you mind to that - not what you believe (we all know that), but why you believe it?

I believe it because for me there is no alternative.

[Leonard James]

Dear Septic,

Cheers mate

I was trawling the net a couple of days ago looking for the old beeb, a blast from the past, we were all so innocent back then

Gonnagle.

Come off it, you old trout! The only time you were innocent was when you were born. 

[Leonard James]

I believe it because for me there is no alternative.

Not true, Alan. You are the one who has closed your mind to any alternatives ... and you are the one that can open it again.

[Nearly Sane]

Come off it, you old trout! The only time you were innocent was when you were born. 

And when he dreams

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=95gu6758320

[Alan Burns]

Not true, Alan. You are the one who has closed your mind to any alternatives ... and you are the one that can open it again.

And how I wish that you could open up your mind, Len, and let God back in.

[Shaker]

And how I wish that you could open up your mind, Len, and let God back in.

Why?

[torridon]

I believe it because for me there is no alternative.

Cop out  There are always alternative ways to think about things, sometimes it just requires more effort.

[Alan Burns]

Why?

So I can look forward to meeting up with my old mate in heaven.

[ekim]

So I can look forward to meeting up with my old mate in heaven.

As there is an impasse between the theists and atheists, perhaps now is the time to change from 'Searching for God' to 'Searching for Heaven' which is where the Christian God is.  What do you understand by 'Heaven', Alan?

[torridon]

(A) I can't honestly recall any feasible explanation for what determines the events which drive our free thought processes.  I do not think we even managed to define what constitutes a "thought".

Our thoughts are not really 'free' though; at base, thoughts emerge into conscious mind from lower levels of consciousness, ie we do not consciously choose which thoughts to think; to do so would imply a circularity in that in order to consider whether to think a thought or not implies we must have already thought about that thought in order to consider whether or not to think it.

Ahem.

[Alan Burns]

Our thoughts are not really 'free' though; at base, thoughts emerge into conscious mind from lower levels of consciousness, ie we do not consciously choose which thoughts to think; to do so would imply a circularity in that in order to consider whether to think a thought or not implies we must have already thought about that thought in order to consider whether or not to think it.

Ahem.

My brain hurts 

[Leonard James]

And how I wish that you could open up your mind, Len, and let God back in.

If I found him wanting the first time, what makes you think I won't find the same thing again, especially with a lifetime's experience behind me now.

[Alan Burns]

As there is an impasse between the theists and atheists, perhaps now is the time to change from 'Searching for God' to 'Searching for Heaven' which is where the Christian God is.  What do you understand by 'Heaven', Alan?

I look upon Heaven as where God exists, and where our true spiritual home is.  I can't elaborate much more because I have never been there, but I do believe we get periodic glimpses of heaven during our earthly life.

The recent quote about the ecstacy of someone hearing Bach's Toccata and Fugue being played in Notre Dame Cathedral comes to mind - "the truth set to music" I think was the phrase she used.

This leads me on to thinking about my two favorite composers - Bach and Vivaldi - both being devout Christians.  Does their inspired music touch upon the joys of heaven?

[torridon]

I look upon Heaven as where God exists, and where our true spiritual home is.  I can't elaborate much more because I have never been there, but I do believe we get periodic glimpses of heaven during our earthly life.

The recent quote about the ecstacy of someone hearing Bach's Toccata and Fugue being played in Notre Dame Cathedral comes to mind - "the truth set to music" I think was the phrase she used.

This leads me on to thinking about my two favorite composers - Bach and Vivaldi - both being devout Christians.  Does their inspired music touch upon the joys of heaven?

Gabrielle Faure, in his Requiem, gave us one of humanity's most sublime pieces of reverential music, yet Faure was an atheist, or perhaps agnostic, not sure which. I think we can all identify with the feelings involved in worship without buying into all the accompanying theology. I was in Norwich cathedral last week, and couldn't help but be moved and awed by the architecture and the aura it creates; but there again I was similarly moved by the Blue Mosque in Istanbul and also by the Golden Temple in Amritsar.  The common denominator being an awe of the works of Man.

[SusanDoris]

As there is an impasse between the theists and atheists, perhaps now is the time to change from 'Searching for God' to 'Searching for Heaven' which is where the Christian God is.  What do you understand by 'Heaven', Alan?

Seconfded.