Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3898706 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8400 on: January 20, 2016, 11:38:48 AM »
As I have said previously, there is evidence in abundance. 

Religions are based on faith, not evidence. If they were based on evidence they would be long dead, because there isn't any, really.

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How else could it have survived for 2000 years in spite of all the persecution and still be the dominant religion religion of the entire planet?

Argumentum ad populum.  I'm pretty sure someone must have mentioned about using logical fallacies before now ?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8401 on: January 20, 2016, 11:59:14 AM »
Gabrielle Faure, in his Requiem, gave us one of humanity's most sublime pieces of reverential music, yet Faure was an atheist, or perhaps agnostic, not sure which. I think we can all identify with the feelings involved in worship without buying into all the accompanying theology. I was in Norwich cathedral last week, and couldn't help but be moved and awed by the architecture and the aura it creates; but there again I was similarly moved by the Blue Mosque in Istanbul and also by the Golden Temple in Amritsar.  The common denominator being an awe of the works of Man.
Going into a list of atheist or agnostic - certainly unbelieving - composers who have created awesomely lovely works of utter beauty might be otiose given how many times the list has been reeled off before. But for Alan's benefit, the first ones off the top of my head are:

Verdi
Delius
Vaughan Williams
Tippett
Shostakovich

... I could extend the list hugely. What this should be telling you is what torridon has already said - there are some highly creative people about regardless of the presence or absence of their religious beliefs.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8402 on: January 20, 2016, 12:13:12 PM »
Contradicted by Buddhism, paganism, etc., I'd have thought ... ?

Sorry, a bit late on this, this is about guilt in religion, and you are right, I should have talked about guilt as a core element in Christianity.   I don't think it is in Buddhism, obviously it will come up, but not in the sense of being forgiven by a 'higher power'.   Don't know about paganism or Islam actually.   But for Christians it is an absolute sine qua non, since there is no point to salvation unless you are not redeemed, and hence, guilty.   So one of the key premises for Christians, is that you are bad, even depraved.   "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."  (Romans)
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8403 on: January 20, 2016, 12:14:45 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.
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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8404 on: January 20, 2016, 12:19:10 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.

I can only repeat what I have said many time before, that for me our spiritual side is our aesthetic sense. It is that part of us which is deeply moved by what we consider beautiful.

Unfortunately, that is entirely relative to the perceiver, so there can be no yardstick.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8405 on: January 20, 2016, 12:22:18 PM »
On the big question of suffering:

We can't choose reality.  We have to accept reality as it is.  Reality includes suffering, and every human being on this planet will have to endure some form of suffering in their lifetime.
No argument from me, or from anybody sane, there.

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When a Christian prays for God to take suffering away, God will answer the prayer in one of two ways.  He will either bring about a miraculous end to the suffering, or He will give the person strength and courage to endure it in order to bring about a greater good.

I've usually heard it quoted as three answers - "Yes," "No" and "Not in right now - please leave a message and I'll get back to you." But as you please.

In either case what you can't get past - and I know that this has been mentioned before so it's going to seem like the bog-standard stock response, but it remains unanswered - is that you simply have absolutely no means of being able to tell the difference between two scenarios: one with the God you believe either answering prayers (yes, no, or wait) and the other with no God of any kind at all and the operation of sheer random chance. Both scenarios look identical. There is literally no way of being able to distinguish one situation from t'other. It just can't be done because - going back to my mini-epic of yesterday - you have erected an indefeasible God, a God in your own mind absolutely no amount of contrary, disconfirming evidence will ever be allowed to encroach upon. When God is deliberately made to be compatible with literally every possible state of affairs, no matter how beautiful or (especially) horrific that state might be, then you have just waved bye-byes to any chance of being able to test your belief against reality. Since Occam's Razor has us prefer the explanation with the least fat on it - the lighter, leaner one; the one which has us start off with the smallest possible number of assumptions - I will go with the most economical explanation. Explanations are like machines or tools, in a way; the more complex they are, the more movable working parts they have, the more likely they are to go wrong. Far more can go wrong with a laptop than with a butterfly tin opener. There's more chance of something going awry with the Large Hadron Collider than with a comb. In this country years ago an artist called Heath Robinson made his name immortal by drawing immensely complicated, over-fussy machines which in the end do something incredibly simple, even trivial. They have the same concept in the USA - they call them Rube Goldberg machines. The relevance of this is that an explanation that bears a greater number of assumptions is more likely to be wrong somewhere along the line - more working parts -, so keep it simple. Some stuff happens here and doesn't happen over there; some people get lucky and others don't. Religion, it has always seemed to me, has always been mankind's oldest and most desperate attempt to try to explain the inherent randomness of the universe, the element of sheer chance in life, by trying to put these things down to the conscious and deliberate plan of unseen forces, sometimes abstract (as in a belief in fate, destiny or kismet) but often (as in theism) personalistic forces. A quote I like comes from the philosopher George Santayana: "Faith in the supernatural is a desperate wager made by man at the lowest ebb of his fortunes." As I remarked a week or two ago, there are some people who seem to have a psychological need to believe that something or, better still, someone is in charge even if the captain of the ship is either well-meaning but a bit of a klutz, an amiable duffer, a sort of divine Private Pike or Tim Nice-But-Dim, or even that he's an out-and-out callous bastard of the Dennis Nilsen or Jeffrey Dahmer variety - an active sadist. Either scenario seems preferable, to such people, than the alternative explanation - nobody's steering the ship, nobody's in charge.

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The suffering we endure either comes from the actions of others, or from some natural disaster in nature.  I am certain that God does not send suffering down on us of His own free will.
In either case, if you believe - as I assume you do, but I am open to correction - in a God who is ultimately in charge of the universe and all within it, God is ultimately responsible even for these things. Like the sign on Harry Truman's desk used to say, the buck stops here. A few days ago I used the analogy of a careless, callous and slipshod engineer - something like a car designer - who sends a machine out into the big wide world, something like a car for example, knowing that there are design flaws serious enough to cause injury or even death but simply not bothering to do anything about it. If the car causes those injuries and deaths the engineer isn't proximately responsible, but he would certainly be ultimately responsible; and so, it seems to me, is the case with the God you believe in if that God is held to be in control of the universe and everything in it. Saying that humans and natural disasters cause suffering is only inserting an extra link in the chain - a superfluous middle man- but that chain still terminates with God.

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If you ever met Becky's husband, Andrew, he will witness to how God is helping him, his children and Becky through this ordeal.  Andrew has very strong faith, probably stronger than mine, and he knows God will see them through this.

Would you not consider help to be more along the lines of having a fit and healthy wife who isn't lying in a hospital bed? Again, you are desperately trying to make a virtue out of necessity, pleading with God not to fuck up Becky's brain and the lives of Becky and her family even more than you must presumably believe he has already done to date (and thanking him for it!). Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it comes across. Either you believe that your God is in ultimate control of all things or you do not - that there is a random element over which God has no control. In the latter case, why posit God?

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As I said, we can't choose the reality we would like, but we have to accept it as it is, and with God's help we see true pupose in our existence and we will live to see a reality beyond our wildest dreams.
Tying your brain in knots trying to excuse, rationalise and justify events with the most absurdly far-fetched pseudo-explanations isn't what I regard as accepting reality. It is a flight from it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 01:24:55 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8406 on: January 20, 2016, 12:27:05 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.
I would really need to know what you mean by that word, how you define it, before I could answer. On the whole I tend to go along with Lenny and regard the spiritual thing as a seamless knit of the emotional and the aesthetic component of our nature.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8407 on: January 20, 2016, 12:35:05 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.



I would say Gonners, Lens post 8739 on this thread sums up, neatly,  how the spiritual is with most of us non-religious people.

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8408 on: January 20, 2016, 12:39:43 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.
Well, if I was good at searching through posts, I'm just about certain I'd find a dozen of mine which point out that everyone has an aesthetic side to their nature. Doesn't matter whether you call it spiritual or something else. Those with religious beliefs do NOT, repeat not have a particular right to use the word spiritual, and if necessary I will march up and down somewhere with a banner pointing this out!! :)
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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8409 on: January 20, 2016, 12:48:07 PM »
Well, if I was good at searching through posts, I'm just about certain I'd find a dozen of mine which point out that everyone has an aesthetic side to their nature. Doesn't matter whether you call it spiritual or something else. Those with religious beliefs do NOT, repeat not have a particular right to use the word spiritual, and if necessary I will march up and down somewhere with a banner pointing this out!! :)

See you in St Peters Square, Rome.  :)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8410 on: January 20, 2016, 01:08:05 PM »
If you ever met Becky's husband, Andrew, he will witness to how God is helping him, his children and Becky through this ordeal.  Andrew has very strong faith, probably stronger than mine, and he knows God will see them through this.


This is the sort of thing which just makes no sense to me. Surely God could just cure Becky rather than just 'help'. Also surely the most likely scenario is that it is his belief in God that is helping him through it rather than God.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8411 on: January 20, 2016, 01:12:55 PM »
Well, if I was good at searching through posts, I'm just about certain I'd find a dozen of mine which point out that everyone has an aesthetic side to their nature. Doesn't matter whether you call it spiritual or something else. Those with religious beliefs do NOT, repeat not have a particular right to use the word spiritual, and if necessary I will march up and down somewhere with a banner pointing this out!! :)

S D I would say Gonners is one of the most affable of people that post here on this forum, but , (there's always a but), I still find him to be one of the most unbending impenetrable of posters here, he gives me the impression he doesn't want to understand most of the logic presented to him, (not just by me) and is just as bad in his very friendly polite way as most of the fundamentalist people that write and present their posts here on this forum.

I haven't got a bone with Gonners or any of the other people that appear to me they have their books closed to reason, yes he has a very natural sunny, likeable disposition and I've no reason to dislike him only his religious views and ideas.   

ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8412 on: January 20, 2016, 01:17:40 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Not religious but maybe Spiritual, something inspired the greats, their music touches us, their paintings, their poems, something moved them to create great works.

Do you or any atheist believe that we have a spiritual side.

Gonnagle.


Problem I have with the concept is here is a quote from Hope which would from his viewpoint be spiritually inspired


Except that the so-called 'equality' of gay marriage is a mirage that some people, gay and straight, are happy to swallow.  If you and others are happy to go along with that, that means that real marriage can survive unharmed.


As Shaker has said on the thread, I am refraining from expressing the full gamut of my opinion on that but if you take the good stuff to imply that there is some infinitely good power, then Hope's post would show there is an infinitely bad one and that he wants us all to worship it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8413 on: January 20, 2016, 01:22:47 PM »
S D I would say Gonners is one of the most affable of people that post here on this forum, but , (there's always a but), I still find him to be one of the most unbending impenetrable of posters here, he gives me the impression he doesn't want to understand most of the logic presented to him, (not just by me) and is just as bad in his very friendly polite way as most of the fundamentalist people that write and present their posts here on this forum.

I haven't got a bone with Gonners or any of the other people that appear to me they have their books closed to reason, yes he has a very natural sunny, likeable disposition and I've no reason to dislike him only his religious views and ideas.   

ippy


This is one of those posts that reads like a mirror of the 'hiding from God' pish, with added their all as bad as one and otherr approach which is used to go 'look,  Stalin was an atheist!'.



Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8414 on: January 20, 2016, 01:22:57 PM »
I would really need to know what you mean by that word, how you define it, before I could answer. On the whole I tend to go along with Lenny and regard the spiritual thing as a seamless knit of the emotional and the aesthetic component of our nature.

Yes, it's the part of us that needs nourishing once our physical needs are met.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8415 on: January 20, 2016, 01:28:56 PM »
Yes, it's the part of us that needs nourishing once our physical needs are met.

Might have been T.S. Eliot (not sure at present - I read so much in so many different places and have for so long that I can't always recall my sources, especially at my advanced age) who said that culture is whatever is left once our immediate needs for nourishment, warmth and shelter are satisified. That might be overstating it somewhat, but I take the point. It seems to be the same concept as you've just expressed, Rhi.

This also reminds me of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8416 on: January 20, 2016, 01:49:01 PM »
Dear Shaker and Rhiannon,

Does your explanation not contradict Leonard's evolutionary explanation, the wonder and awe stems from the fact that we saw a beautiful valley as somewhere where we would find food and shelter.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_aesthetics

Just for the record I am not arguing against this theory, it just sounds to easy, the awe we feel in a flock of starlings, the awe we feel when looking at the stars, the awe we feel in watching a colony of ants, how does that fit.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8417 on: January 20, 2016, 02:35:30 PM »
You haven't shown any evidence for free will
If free will eminates from the human soul, the only evidence available will be from the soul's awareness.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8418 on: January 20, 2016, 02:39:15 PM »
If free will eminates from the human soul, the only evidence available will be from the soul's awareness.

Explain the methodology where this is regarded as evidence.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8419 on: January 20, 2016, 02:40:22 PM »
If free will eminates from the human soul, the only evidence available will be from the soul's awareness.
So you posit one thing you can't demonstrate merely to be able to posit it as the cause of a second thing you can't demonstrate. Good grief.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8420 on: January 20, 2016, 02:44:42 PM »
This is the sort of thing which just makes no sense to me. Surely God could just cure Becky rather than just 'help'. Also surely the most likely scenario is that it is his belief in God that is helping him through it rather than God.

Yes, the ingenuity of the human mind is incredible, which can argue like this, that God doesn't create the bad stuff (although he creates everything), but he will help you through it, but won't cure it, (although he could).  And it's for a higher good.   

2 + 2 = 5, or is it 7?

As Shaker says, it's about having something in charge, otherwise, panic.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8421 on: January 20, 2016, 03:12:50 PM »
And my reply to NS:

I do plead guilty to sometimes jumping in with my replies without taking the time to fully understand what I am replying to. :-[

My ideas about free will and consciousness came to me about forty years ago when I had a eureka moment in realising that whatever invokes a conscious choice is triggered by me and is not part of a pre determined chain reaction of events.  This led me to thinking about consciouness itself, and how my conscious awareness can perceive the contents of my brain cells at any moment in time.  The only way I could make sense of this was to realise that my spiritual soul must have some form of interaction with my brain to be able to perceive its contents and invoke my brain cells into initiating physical acts of free will.  I later read about how some quantum events can occur without any apparent cause, which would open up the possibility of our soul interacting with the molecules of our brain cells at the quantum level.


First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate that there are a number of us firing stuff at you and that you do make the effort to address as much as possible. In the above eureka moment you seem to have already been walking about with all sorts of readymade ideas such as 'soul' so it doesn't really seem that eureka-ey to me. You just are attaching one idea to another with no real justification.

When you say something is the only way you can conceive it, you are immediately carrying out an appeal to ignorance. You need to have justification, not simply claim your inability to think of another idea makes it so. As for the use of quantum events, this is one of the common misuses of lack of knowledge. Here instead of accepting that we don't know if anything causes this, you immediately posit a connection which you have no justification for.

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I do not claim these ideas to be true facts, and I have no method to show whether they can be true or not, but it is my attempt to explain the reality I perceive about my own existence.



Actually you are constantly talking about these thoughts as if they were facts, because you talk about knowledge. I accept that may be just a habit but you often seem to confuse belief and knowledge. It's good to see you make clear that you have no method but if you don't have a method then any talk of evidence is a nonsense. You need a method to define what evidence is.


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I am not sure what you mean by the term "string free" in your post - can I assume it is something to do with string theory?  But I do recognise your conclusion that neurological experiments indicate that there is no real gap for free will.  The problem is that methodologically naturalistic investigations can't include anything of a spiritual nature, so if a spiritual soul does exist, it can't be discovered by such methods.



It's just a typo for strong, meaning to distinguish your idea of free will from compatibilist ideas of free will. You are absolutely right that naturalistic methods can only lead to naturalistic conclusions, and I wish you could get some of the other theists on here to understand that. The problem is that is all we have. You cannot make claims of miracles without some method to establish them, and since you don't provide one, your claims are in the time honouredphrase, not even wrong.


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I find Hillside's idea that conscious awareness is an emergent propery not at all convincing, because emergent properties are just comprised of perceived patterns of bahaviour, and this "property" has can have no real presence in itself.





But that is only an issue if you assume it does have real presence and cannot have that from emergence. You find it unconvincing because you are already convinced of something else which you haven't been able to demonstrate. You should look at the facts and then derive the tgeory, not just reject the facts because they don't fit what you already think.

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Perhaps I am being too ambitious to try to explain my perceptions of reality, for the Bible teaches that we should become as little children to be able to enter Heaven.  I am sure that God does not want us to dwell too much on what makes us work the way we do, but to simply accept that He loves us as a parent loves their children, and to put our faith and trust in Him.
Why would a god not want use to know stuff? Why would it make itself mysterious and not in line with facts? This last part of your post were you note so obviously nice would be horrifying. It is asking people not to use their intelligence, and any god that wants that is merely an arse.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8422 on: January 20, 2016, 03:16:22 PM »
Dear Shaker and Rhiannon,

Does your explanation not contradict Leonard's evolutionary explanation, the wonder and awe stems from the fact that we saw a beautiful valley as somewhere where we would find food and shelter.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_aesthetics

Just for the record I am not arguing against this theory, it just sounds to easy, the awe we feel in a flock of starlings, the awe we feel when looking at the stars, the awe we feel in watching a colony of ants, how does that fit.

Gonnagle.

The awe we feel in observing the phenomena you mention stems from them arising from such a simple mechanism, that of evolution.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8423 on: January 20, 2016, 03:30:31 PM »
Yes, it's the part of us that needs nourishing once our physical needs are met.

Yes from time to time I have this need to listen to a piece of music I haven't listened to for some time and when I've listened to it it's something like a shot in the arm and it also satisfies something inside, I've no idea what but when it hits the button I just know it has.

Just reminded me I haven't listened to Jimmy Hendrix "The Star and Bangled Banner" for some time, I'll take the dog for a walk and have a listen to that when I come back Home.

Pretty quite here, wife's in NZ till Feb, gone with her sister to see their brother and their family, he runs a B & B on the outskirts of Christchurch, that last earthquake knocked down most of the hotels, so B & B businesses are booming.

ippy   
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:32:11 PM by ippy »

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8424 on: January 20, 2016, 03:39:41 PM »

This is one of those posts that reads like a mirror of the 'hiding from God' pish, with added their all as bad as one and otherr approach which is used to go 'look,  Stalin was an atheist!'.

Well NS we're all entitled to our opinion N S, by the way I wondered do you pretend to not understand secularism no matter how many times all sorts of people that post here try to explain and the same with evolution?

ippy