Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

WRONG: What is more you make a statement you have no understanding, education or knowledge to support.
Why is that? Why is it, you cannot face your own truth? The fact remains that you are wrong and have a double mind when it comes to justice, judgment, man and God.WRONG: The God of the bible is only evil because you are evil.
You make double standards. It is ok for the law here and man to judge another putting them to death or imprisoning them for their wrongs. You have no power of thinking and understanding when it comes to the order of man, life and creation.
You repay wrong with wrong in that you cannot see your own wrong and double standards.

You can make as

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ippy

[ippy]

Follow the thread.
I was talking to Shaker... I think it is obvious...

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ippy

[ippy]

or two... let him spoil himself...

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ippy

[ippy]

Only you could take the biscuit.... LOL!

It is true you do take the biscuit when it comes to speaking about things you do not understand and I suppose to those in the know it can be annoying or rather just irritating that you are the only one who cannot see it.

 

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ippy

[Alan Burns]

I will explain it to you, Alan, and hope you understand it.

Evolution first of all began with the self first instinct. Primitive organisms simply took what they wanted from the environment to live and multiply. There was no need to care about anything else.

Then came the advent of social species, when the instinct to protect the group overrode the primitive self first instinct, but didn't eradicate it. Because of the diversity of genetic combinations, it follows that all the members of one social species had a differing balance of the two instincts, ranging from totally selfish at one extreme to totally altruistic at the other, with the majority somewhere in between.

Humans, being a social species, are exactly the same, and it is those at the very selfish end of the range that you think the "Devil" is tempting, whereas in fact they are doing nothing more than responding to their genetic makeup.

Can you understand that?

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Len.  I can understand your logic, but I need to point out a few things.  It is hard to see how some evil human behaviour could ever have attributed any survival advantage to either themselves or to their community.  Where does vandalism or arson come from?  Or bullying for pleasure?  Or the "entertainment" organised by the Roman heirachy at the coliseum?  The sheer diversity of human bad behaviour defies any logical explanation through evolution advantages alone.  On the other side, there is the capacity for humans to do good deeds far in excess of anything one would expect from basic animal instincts.

[Leonard James]

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Len.  I can understand your logic, but I need to point out a few things.  It is hard to see how some evil human behaviour could ever have attributed any survival advantage to either themselves or to their community.  Where does vandalism or arson come from?  Or bullying for pleasure?  Or the "entertainment" organised by the Roman heirachy at the coliseum?

You have unwittingly answered your own question, Alan. "For pleasure". Some people derive pleasure from vicious activity, and that is why they do it. Nothing to do with any "Devil".

The sheer diversity of human bad behaviour defies any logical explanation through evolution advantages alone.

Not so! I've just given you one.

On the other side, there is the capacity for humans to do good deeds far in excess of anything one would expect from basic animal instincts.

Once again it is because it pleases them to behave like that, and they would feel uncomfortable if they didn't. I am one such person, and I assure you it is just my nature ... I am not following the instructions of any "spirit".

However, as I already said to Floo, I can understand your difficulty in accepting the facts.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

Our local priest who has accumulated much wisdom during his 90 years on this earth says how he can see the cloven hoof of the devil's work in much of today's modern society.

That made me smile, but that's atheists he is thinking of ( Gonnagle you go to far ).

I have no doubt that your wise old Priest does use that metaphor but do you ever question it, cloven hoof, horns, spiky tail, where did all that spring from, you are allowed Alan to question, to think, God, the Father gave you that ability, the Bible, you can question it, it is there for that purpose, to make you think.

Do not worship the Bible, worship God, do not worship your Church, worship God.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

The fact that our human awareness can perceive so many things which are wrong in this world shows that God must have given us some insight into imagining how things could be much better.

No it doesn't. It shows nothing of the kind. What it does show is that evolution gave us a moral sense - we can compare one state of affairs with another state of affairs and make a comparison between them.

Our local priest who has accumulated much wisdom during his 90 years on this earth says how he can see the cloven hoof of the devil's work in much of today's modern society.

He sounds like one of that unfortunately numerous class of old fools who can't cope with real life in the modern world as it actually is, rather than the way he wants it to be.

[torridon]

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Len.  I can understand your logic, but I need to point out a few things.  It is hard to see how some evil human behaviour could ever have attributed any survival advantage to either themselves or to their community.  Where does vandalism or arson come from?  Or bullying for pleasure?  Or the "entertainment" organised by the Roman heirachy at the coliseum?  The sheer diversity of human bad behaviour defies any logical explanation through evolution advantages alone.  On the other side, there is the capacity for humans to do good deeds far in excess of anything one would expect from basic animal instincts.

Humans are complex, and whilst we might easily be able to recast most good/bad behaviours in terms of the tension between self-centred and group-centred impulses there will always be some that fall outside that, such as cruelty, sadism, racism, homophobia etc.  It's not the case that all our behaviours can be put down to beneficial mutations, there are literally thousands of heritable conditions in the human genome that natural selection has not eliminated and many of these play into our behaviours.  We can spot a psychopath from his DNA for example, and we cannot blame people for the DNA they inherited. I'd suggest there are always reasons for things, even though they might be hard to discern, and putting down seemingly inexplicable behaviours to the temptations of some medieval mythical monster will gain us no new insights. That is a cop out; we are modern people, privileged by education, we ought to be able to do better than that.

[Shaker]

I'd suggest there are always reasons for things, even though they might be hard to discern, and putting down seemingly inexplicable behaviours to a medieval mythical monster will gain us no new insights. That is a cop out; we are modern people, privileged by education, we ought to be able to do better than that.

It's writing like that - thinking like that - from posters like that that make being a member of this forum a pleasure.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

He sounds like one of that unfortunately numerous class of old fools who can't cope with real life in the modern world as it actually is, rather than the way he wants it to be.

No, he sounds like a 90 year old Roman Catholic Priest, actually! nevermind, carry on.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Dear Shaker,

No, he sounds like a 90 year old Roman Catholic Priest, actually!

As I was saying ...

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

We can spot a psychopath from his DNA for example,

Can we!!

But this is the bit that interests me.

there are literally thousands of heritable conditions in the human genome that natural selection has not eliminated and many of these play into our behaviours.

Like belief, and have we hung on to that one because it is beneficial.

Or is this the wrong thread.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Len.  I can understand your logic, but I need to point out a few things.  It is hard to see how some evil human behaviour could ever have attributed any survival advantage to either themselves or to their community.  Where does vandalism or arson come from?  Or bullying for pleasure?  Or the "entertainment" organised by the Roman heirachy at the coliseum?  The sheer diversity of human bad behaviour defies any logical explanation through evolution advantages alone.  On the other side, there is the capacity for humans to do good deeds far in excess of anything one would expect from basic animal instincts.

Look up some info about the Stamford Prison experiment Phillip Zimbardo, I'm sure you'll turn yourself inside out to justify your belief to yourself but have a look anyway, it'll add to Len's post, it's not a comfortable side of human behaviour to learn about.

Evolution unlike religion has stood up to anything thrown at it and it still runs true to form with repeatable evidence.

ippy

[ippy]

No it doesn't. It shows nothing of the kind. What it does show is that evolution gave us a moral sense - we can compare one state of affairs with another state of affairs and make a comparison between them.
He sounds like one of that unfortunately numerous class of old fools who can't cope with real life in the modern world as it actually is, rather than the way he wants it to be.

"He sounds like one of that unfortunately numerous class of old fools who can't cope with real life in the modern world as it actually is, rather than the way he wants it to be".

I can't see what I've done for for you to start picking on me Shakes?

ippy

[Shaker]

I can't see what I've done for for you to start picking on me Shakes?

Not you ippy - I can't see you laying all the perceived ills of the moden world at the feet of Satan 

[ippy]

Not you ippy - I can't see you laying all the perceived ills of the moden world at the feet of Satan 

You're right about satan but I can see myself getting more and more like the rest of that comment as I get older, well at least I'm aware of it.

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Look up some info about the Stamford Prison experiment Phillip Zimbardo, I'm sure you'll turn yourself inside out to justify your belief to yourself but have a look anyway, it'll add to Len's post, it's not a comfortable side of human behaviour to learn about.

Evolution unlike religion has stood up to anything thrown at it and it still runs true to form with repeatable evidence.

ippy

For Alan though that would just be proof of the cloven hoofed one, wandering around the experiment, tempting away in his twisty tempty way.

[ekim]

The Bahá'í Faith, I think, has the best interpretation of Satan ..... from Wiki .....
In the Bahá'í Faith, Satan is not regarded as an independent evil power as he is in some faiths, but signifies the lower nature of humans. `Abdu'l-Bahá explains: "This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan — the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside." All other evil spirits described in various faith traditions—such as fallen angels, demons, and jinns—are also metaphors for the base character traits a human being may acquire and manifest when he turns away from God.

[Nearly Sane]

Also for those who may not remember it or didn't see it, I once asked Alan about what he thought about the case of Phineas Gage and its implications for free will


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

To which the answer was demon possession.

[Shaker]

Also for those who may not remember it or didn't see it, I once asked Alan about what he thought about the case of Phineas Gage and its implications for free will


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

To which the answer was demon possession.

Seriously? That was his response?

[floo]

Also for those who may not remember it or didn't see it, I once asked Alan about what he thought about the case of Phineas Gage and its implications for free will


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

To which the answer was demon possession.

Really? Maybe he would consider my brain damaged husband demonically possessed too!

[Shaker]

Really? Maybe he would consider my brain damaged husband demonically possessed too!

Floo, realistically, would anyone be surprised?

[Shaker]

If he was demonically possessed, or if Alan thinks he is?

The latter!

[floo]

The latter!

I thought that is what you meant!

So come on Alan, let's hear your opinion!