Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

The latter!

It's difficult to know about whether he would in the specific case, it might just be Floo's husband got the tempting bad from Stan the cloven hoofed

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I sincerely wish that the devil did not exist, but I can't bring myself to ignore the evidence.  The inspired words of the bible show the devil's presence at the beginning, and his prophetic presence is still there at the end.

Of course you can ignore it because it's not evidence at all - it's just a book making a claim. To be evidence you'd need to be able to point to something other than a book making a claim so as to validate that claim.

This bizarre nursery school thinking of yours is getting tiresome, but you seem incapable of escaping it nonetheless. Perhaps if you scattered a few "in my personal opinions" around rather than just asserted your conjectures as facts you'd at least claw back some sense of honesty now your credibility is shot?   

[floo]

It's difficult to know about whether he would in the specific case, it might just be Floo's husband got the tempting bad from Stan the cloven hoofed

Could be! When my husband was in a coma following his subarachnoid haemorrhage,e he claims to have had an experience, which convinced him beyond all doubt no god or afterlife exists. Maybe Alan would claim my husband had a message from Satan!

[Nearly Sane]

AB,

Of course you can ignore it because it's not evidence at all - it's just a book making a claim. To be evidence you'd need to be able to point to something other than a book making a claim so as to validate that claim.

This bizarre nursery school thinking of yours is getting tiresome, but you seem incapable of escaping it nonetheless. Perhaps if you scattered a few "in my personal opinions" around rather than just asserted your conjectures as facts you'd at least claw back some sense of honesty now your credibility is shot?

To be fair I think Alan's point was in reply to Gonnagle and was that those who believe the Bible as being required to believe in the reality of the Volde
.. I mean Satan.

[Alan Burns]

Also for those who may not remember it or didn't see it, I once asked Alan about what he thought about the case of Phineas Gage and its implications for free will


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

To which the answer was demon possession.

I know my memory cells are rapidly deteriorating, but I honestly have no recollection of seeing this link before, or making any comment or obervation about it.  Are you sure this response was from me?

Looking at the article, I am sure my response would have been that such brain damage could certainly alter a person's "hard wired" personality - ie their natural built in personality traits defined by brain materials.  But there is the spiritual capacity of "free will" to use the power of the human soul to override our natural personality traits by being able to interact with what is left of the brain.

It is common in many people who have discovered Christian faith that they undergo a dramatic personality change.  I have witnessed this in several people.

[Nearly Sane]

I know my memory cells are rapidly deteriorating, but I honestly have no recollection of seeing this link before, or making any comment or obervation about it.  Are you sure this response was from me?

Looking at the article, I am sure my response would have been that such brain damage could certainly alter a person's "hard wired" personality - ie their natural built in personality traits defined by brain materials.  But there is the spiritual capacity of "free will" to use the power of the human soul to override our natural personality traits by being able to interact with what is left of the brain.

It is common in many people who have discovered Christian faith that they undergo a dramatic personality change.  I have witnessed this in several people.

Yes, it was you. I tend to remember people who mention demon possession. Are you now saying you don't believe in demon possession?

[Leonard James]

It is common in many people who have discovered Christian faith that they undergo a dramatic personality change.  I have witnessed this in several people.

Only if they were rather unpleasant people before their "discovery". Most people behave like Christians whether they are or not, because that is the norm for behavior. It is the dominance of the "group instinct" over the self first one.

[Shaker]

Only if they were rather unpleasant people before their "discovery".

It can also work in the opposite direction, of course.

[Nearly Sane]

Only if they were rather unpleasant people before their "discovery". Most people behave like Christians whether they are or not, because that is the norm for behavior. It is the dominance of the "group instinct" over the self first one.

Just to note I have known a number of people who became a variety of types of theist and became deeply unpleasant after it. Not so much, it seemed to me, because of the religion itself but those in the religion that they went into who were already deeply unpleasant.

[Leonard James]

It can also work in the opposite direction, of course.

Well, if it makes them fanatics, I suppose so! 

[torridon]

Dear Torridon,

Can we!!

But this is the bit that interests me.

Like belief, and have we hung on to that one because it is beneficial.

Or is this the wrong thread.

Gonnagle.

We can spot a potential psychopath, I should have said, from his DNA; nurture plays into it as well of course.  We can also spot a psychopath from brain scanning techniques.

Of course, now we have universal health care and an 'elf and safety culture, all manner of deleterious mutations can be accumulating in the human genome that would normally be eliminated through natural selection pressures.

[Nearly Sane]

We can spot a potential psychopath, I should have said, from his DNA; nurture plays into it as well of course.  We can also spot a psychopath from brain scanning techniques.

Of course, now we have universal health care and an 'elf and safety culture, all manner of deleterious mutations can be building up in the human genome that would normally be eliminated through natural selection pressures.

Given the theory that many CEOs might be deemed psychopaths, is it correct to regard it as deleterious?

[Alan Burns]

Dear Alan,

That made me smile, but that's atheists he is thinking of ( Gonnagle you go to far ).

I have no doubt that your wise old Priest does use that metaphor but do you ever question it, cloven hoof, horns, spiky tail, where did all that spring from, you are allowed Alan to question, to think, God, the Father gave you that ability, the Bible, you can question it, it is there for that purpose, to make you think.

Do not worship the Bible, worship God, do not worship your Church, worship God.

Gonnagle.

Of course I worship God.  I know He has given me a good brain (so people tell me, but sadly not from this forum!).  But no matter how good my brain is, it can still be deceived by the power of the evil one.  So my faith in God has to include His power to guide and influence His church on earth.  I truly believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to guide those people who compiled the bible, and this power continues today to guide His church.  Too many people have tried to "go it alone", breaking away from the body of the church instead of remaining in it to help.  [Another sign of the subtle way the devil works perhaps?]

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Most people behave like Christians whether they are or not

Oh they do do they!! Do you think those bloody Christians have some kind of monopoly on being good, well do you

Sorry!! sorry! I think I was taken over by some demonic atheist spirit there.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Of course, now we have universal health care and an 'elf and safety culture, all manner of deleterious mutations can be accumulating in the human genome that would normally be eliminated through natural selection pressures.

Universal health care is not there to preserve the lives of the unworthy, but rather the lives of the poor - unless, of course, you particularly think those two are synonyms?

Similarly, health and safety in the workplace is primarily to prevent unscrupulous employers putting their workforce at risk - it's about protecting the poor, not the 'evolutionarily undesirable'.

O.

[Outrider]

Given the theory that many CEOs might be deemed psychopaths, is it correct to regard it as deleterious?

I thought that was sociopaths? Either way, the question still stands of course...

... and to which my answer would be: that rather depends on what you think the goal is

O.

[Outrider]

Sorry!! sorry! I think I was taken over by some demonic atheist spirit there.

Gonnagle.

Oooh, I saw a film about those 'demonic spirits'... I think they're called Djinn. Or Gin?

O.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, it was you. I tend to remember people who mention demon possession. Are you now saying you don't believe in demon possession?

I have an open mind on it, but I fail to see what could link demon posession with physical brain damage.

[Nearly Sane]

I thought that was sociopaths? Either way, the question still stands of course...

... and to which my answer would be: that rather depends on what you think the goal is

O.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/21/top-10-psychopathic-professions-ceo-lawyer-then-me/


Tbh it's overly simplistic for me, but I wasn’t looking at it as a specific goal but in what would be success in passing on genes would be more likely if successful in financial terms as a general rule.

[Nearly Sane]

I have an open mind on it, but I fail to see what could link demon posession with physical brain damage.

That's good you seem to have moved on in the last year or so since you did it, praise the Dawk!

[SusanDoris]

Dear Sane,

Not if you believe in Wigs "Quetzalcoatl" how is that pronounced, quickgetyercoat, oh Blasphemy! blasphemy blasforyou blasforeveryone.

Gonnagle.

kays-al-cotle according to Synthetic Dave! I personally think it should be 'kwets-al-co-atle, with stress on first and last syllables.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

To be fair I think Alan's point was in reply to Gonnagle and was that those who believe the Bible as being required to believe in the reality of the Volde

.. I mean Satan.

R9220 didn't read that way to me. Gonners asked whether believing that "the devil" exists belittles god, and AB answered to the effect that he cannot ignore the "evidence" that Stan exists - that evidence being "because the bible says so". As ever he left off the next bit of, "and as a matter of personal faith I think that the bible is true" in favour of just asserting his conjecture about that into fact, but there it is nonetheless.   

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

R9220 didn't read that way to me. Gonners asked whether believing that "the devil" exists belittles god, and AB answered to the effect that he cannot ignore the "evidence" that Stan exists - that evidence being "because the bible says so". As ever he left off the next bit of, "and as a matter of personal faith I think that the bible is true" in favour of asserting his conjecture into fact, but there it is nonetheless.

I agree there is no further justification, but in this case he's arguing that if you believe in the NT, the devil is part of that. He is just talking to Gonzo who is a Christian on that basis. It isn't going to take into account the challenge from others. Not that it will make any difference.

[torridon]

Universal health care is not there to preserve the lives of the unworthy, but rather the lives of the poor - unless, of course, you particularly think those two are synonyms?

Similarly, health and safety in the workplace is primarily to prevent unscrupulous employers putting their workforce at risk - it's about protecting the poor, not the 'evolutionarily undesirable'.

O.

I had Nietzche in mind, I remember in Twilight of the Idols he rants against Christianity for being anti-nature, in that nature tends to keep a lean and fit population by consistently picking off the weak, the vulnerable, the unfit etc. whereas Christian values march in the polar opposite direction with compassion for all, this translating into our modern notion of human rights; this stands in direct opposition to Nature and what is natural.

[Shaker]

I had Nietzche in mind, I remember in Twilight of the Idols he rants against Christianity for being anti-nature, in that nature tends to keep a lean and fit population by consistently picking off the weak, the vulnerable, the unfit etc. whereas Christian values march in the opposite direction with compassion for all, this translating into our modern notion of human rights; this stand in direct opposition to Nature.

I doubt if he had Nietzsche in mind but Steve Jones has made comments in a similar vein, suggesting that human ingenuity has largely removed the species from natural selection.