Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

What an earth are you babbling on about, man? Magic and superstition as part of NS' belief??  Since you only mentioned NS in your post, I can only assume you were referring to him. You really need to pay more attention to the subtleties of NS' thinking. Get a grip.

Just read back about two or three posts of mine I didn't say that, although if you hadn't read any of my previous posts, well yes it does look like, as you say.

ippy

[ippy]

No, what you wrote was this:

Quote from: ippy on Today at 01:23:43 PM


Oh yes, I made a point of not classifying you as a religious believer or not, something else you seem to have  missed

ippy   

No, what you wrote was this:

Quote
So again without and until evidence is provided that would support the magical, mystical and superstition based parts of what appears to be his belief, people that believe these religious things, as far as I'm concerned are delusional.

I was plainly referring to Hope.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

So, if I am desperate for food and decide that in these circumstances shoplifting wouldn't be wrong for me at that time, then the devil is off the hook?

If you genuinely believe it is the right thing to do at the time, it is not a sin and therefore not the devil's temptation.

[Shaker]

If you genuinely believe it is the right thing to do at the time, it is not a sin and therefore not the devil's temptation.

You're making this up as you go along!

[Alan Burns]

You're making this up as you go along!

I am just quoting basic church teaching.

[torridon]

If you genuinely believe it is the right thing to do at the time, it is not a sin and therefore not the devil's temptation.

Not sure that makes sense.  If it is the devil putting temptation in your way, he is not going to make it obvious surely, he is going to trick you into thinking it the right thing to do.

Suppose you are a vegetarian and your boss (who is unaware you are a veggie) invites you round for dinner and serves you a beef steak. You feel compromised by the situation so you decide to eat the steak rather than embarass your boss.  You know what you are doing is immoral, so according to you, this must be the devil at work ?

[Alan Burns]

Not sure that makes sense.  If it is the devil putting temptation in your way, he is not going to make it obvious surely, he is going to trick you into thinking it the right thing to do.

Suppose you are a vegetarian and your boss (who is unaware you are a veggie) invites you round for dinner and serves you a beef steak. You feel compromised by the situation so you decide to eat the steak rather than embarass your boss.  You know what you are doing is immoral, so according to you, this must be the devil at work ?

No, you are doing it for a genuine unselfish reason.
As Martin Luther King once said, you can judge the deed, but not the person.  If a person genuinely believes they are doing the right thing, it is not a sin in God's eyes.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

If you genuinely believe it is the right thing to do at the time, it is not a sin and therefore not the devil's temptation.

Stop digging!

So if the sociopath genuinely believes that killing his neighbour is fine and dandy, no "sin" has been committed?

How about Hitler genuinely believing wiping out the Jews was the right thing to do?

[torridon]

Suppose you are a vegetarian and your boss (who is unaware you are a veggie) invites you round for dinner and serves you a beef steak. You feel compromised by the situation so you decide to eat the steak rather than embarass your boss.  You know what you are doing is immoral, so according to you, this must be the devil at work ?

No, you are doing it for a genuine unselfish reason.
As Martin Luther King once said, you can judge the deed, but not the person.  If a person genuinely believes they are doing the right thing, it is not a sin in God's eyes.

In my example the veggie is knowingly doing the wrong thing.  He bottled out of an embarrasing situation and compromised his moral principals to save face. So, the devil at work ?

The jihadist blowing up strangers up in a market place believes he is doing right by God. So, no Devil involved in that then.

[Nearly Sane]

I think that Alan may need to add a clarification to his position. There is an assumption in his position that you have a conscience given from his god that tells you what is right and wrong and the temptation is when you want to do something to counter to this. So Fred West can never in Alan's world think that it is morally ok to kill people, he will always 'know' that it is wrong but will have been tempted to do the wrong thing. It means also in Alan's world that if you ever have a disagreement on a moral issue with someone - say abortion or homosexuality then one of you is lying about what you think is right.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Stop digging!

So if the sociopath genuinely believes that killing his neighbour is fine and dandy, no "sin" has been committed?

How about Hitler genuinely believing wiping out the Jews was the right thing to do?

I personaly can't believe that any sane person would honestly believe they were doing good by comitting such deeds.
But God is the final judge. 

[Nearly Sane]

I personaly can't believe that any sane person would honestly believe they were doing good by comitting such deeds.
But God is the final judge.

What does the concept of 'sane' mean in religious terms? If Hitler was insane, how can he be judged to be wrong?

[Alan Burns]

No, you are doing it for a genuine unselfish reason.
As Martin Luther King once said, you can judge the deed, but not the person.  If a person genuinely believes they are doing the right thing, it is not a sin in God's eyes.


In my example the veggie is knowingly doing the wrong thing.  He bottled out of an embarrasing situation and compromised his moral principals to save face. So, the devil at work ?

The jihadist blowing up strangers up in a market place also believes he is doing right by God. So, no Devil involved in that then.

As NS correctly pointed out, it is all down to your God given conscience.  If you deliberately ingore what your conscience tells you is right or wrong, then it is the devil tempting you.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I personaly can't believe that any sane person would honestly believe they were doing good by comitting such deeds.

NS has already given your latest effort a good kicking, but would you say that the surgeon who "kills" one conjoined twin so that both don't die is insane? How about the official in US prisons who oversees executions?

These people genuinely believe that the are doing the right thing, yet others would disagree. Whence then your morality? 

But God is the final judge.

That is your personal opinion, yes.

[ekim]

What does the concept of 'sane' mean in religious terms? If Hitler was insane, how can he be judged to be wrong?

Perhaps he would be judged as being possessed  by the devil, one of Satan's little helpers.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

As NS correctly pointed out, it is all down to your God given conscience.  If you deliberately ingore what your conscience tells you is right or wrong, then it is the devil tempting you.

I believe that you actually believe that, but the question is what happens when your conscience says you're doing nothing wrong? You might for example run an abortion clinic and think you're behaving morally well, yet the people outside waving placards would think the opposite.

Neither is ignoring his conscience, so which is committing the "sin"?

[Alan Burns]

The jihadist blowing up strangers up in a market place believes he is doing right by God. So, no Devil involved in that then.

In my view the devil is very much involved.
The jihadist is most likely ingoring his conscience is order to succumb to the devil's temptation to take a short cut to heaven.

[Nearly Sane]

As NS correctly pointed out, it is all down to your God given conscience.  If you deliberately ingore what your conscience tells you is right or wrong, then it is the devil tempting you.

NS didn't point that out, he explained both what you might say and some of the problems with it. Is abortion moral?

[Nearly Sane]

In my view the devil is very much involved.
The jihadist is most likely ingoring his conscience is order to succumb to the devil's temptation to take a short cut to heaven.

So they are lying as well as killing. Can you actually provide any justification for this position or have you just decided to go full metal assert today (as if that were unusual(?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

In my view the devil is very much involved.
The jihadist is most likely ingoring his conscience is order to succumb to the devil's temptation to take a short cut to heaven.[/quote

No, the jihadist is absolutely following his conscience; he's certain that he's doing right. That's the problem with your conjecture. 

[Alan Burns]

NS didn't point that out, he explained both what you might say and some of the problems with it. Is abortion moral?

Of course I believe that abortion is morally wrong.
I am not in a position to judge the motives of people involved with the abortion, but I would be prepared to witness to them and try to convince them that what they are doing is wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course I believe that abortion is morally wrong.
I am not in a position to judge the motives of people involved with the abortion, but I would be prepared to witness to them and try to convince them that what they are doing is wrong.

Except you have judged them by agreeing with my suggestion about conscience, you think they are lying if they state that they do not think abortion is wrong.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

In my view the devil is very much involved.
The jihadist is most likely ingoring his conscience is order to succumb to the devil's temptation to take a short cut to heaven.

No, the jihadist is absolutely following his conscience; he's certain that he's doing right. That's the problem with your conjecture.

We have to agree to differ in what might be in the mind of the jihadist, but as I said, God will be the final judge.

[Nearly Sane]

No, the jihadist is absolutely following his conscience; he's certain that he's doing right. That's the problem with your conjecture.

We have to agree to differ in what might be in the mind of the jihadist, but as I said, God will be the final judge.

Except you are disagreeing with the jihadist about what is in their mind.

[Alan Burns]

Except you have judged them by agreeing with my suggestion about conscience, you think they are lying if they state that they do not think abortion is wrong.

I can't presume to know what is in the conscience of another person.  They could be genuinely mistaken about whether abortion is the right thing to do.  But they could also be making a self centred excuse to do something they know to be wrong.

A person can usually test their conscience by asking themselves what the true motive is.