Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892911 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9175 on: January 30, 2016, 06:00:59 PM »
AB,

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The bum on the seat is not a very good example.

We are really talking of cause and effect, so the chair is simply causing your bum not to hit the floor.  How it does it is irrelevent to the fact that is is the cause of this behaviour.  Take the chair away, and we can be certain that the bum will hit the floor

You’ve missed the point. All that was being said is that we often perceive explanations very deeply that nonetheless turn out not to be the case. There have been countless beliefs just a strongly held as your own that have been shown to be wrong. Flat wrong.

For some reason though you privilege your strong personal feeling about something above all the evidence that contradicts it, and despite the absence of evidence to support it. 

Why?

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So there are some things my body can only do if initiated by an act of conscious will, for example speech.  Without the act of conscious will, these things will not be enacted.  How this occurs is irrelevent to the fact that the speech can only occur by an act of conscious will.

And yet again you confuse “conscious/free” will of the little man at the controls type with the impression of “conscious/free” will of the little man at the controls type.

There’s plenty of evidence for the latter, and none for the former. But for your religious faith, why then cling to your version despite the evidence problem it gives you?

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If deterministic science can't explain how it works, we must look beyond this for the true explanation.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

First, “deterministic science” has already made considerable inroads into explaining consciousness. The story is far from complete, but many of the pieces are in place and more come along all the time.

Second, when science doesn’t have an answer people who do science do even more of it in search of an answer. That’s why for example we now know that germs rather than bad spirits cause diseases. Had we adopted your method before we knew that, we’d still be stuck with bad spirits theory.

Why on earth would you think that science not having an answer just now means we should just abandon science in favour of something else? 

Third, where else would you propose that anyone “look” for this “true explanation” in any case? Just guessing about stuff is fun as a party game, but you have no means of knowing whether you have the “true” explanation until and unless you finally produce a method to test your assertions.

Which once again is where your case falls apart because, well, "strongfeelingology" is not a method 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 06:08:39 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9176 on: January 30, 2016, 06:03:17 PM »
Bravo bluey. Just ... bravo.

Alan's intellectual world really doesn't seem to have gone past 1354 (that's the year, not the hour of the day. And I feel even that's erring on the generous side).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9177 on: January 30, 2016, 06:22:09 PM »
Few things convey how utterly ignorant you are of science .................
..................than mistaking The God Dekusion for popular science?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9178 on: January 30, 2016, 06:22:48 PM »
..................than mistaking The God Dekusion for popular science?
Never heard of it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9179 on: January 30, 2016, 06:30:43 PM »
Never heard of it.
What.......Not heard of The God Dekusion by Pritchard Hawkins?
What about Cod is not Crate by Chrostopher iItchings?.......or Letter to a Christian Nation by Billy the Kid?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9180 on: January 30, 2016, 07:26:46 PM »
Shakes,

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Bravo bluey. Just ... bravo.

Alan's intellectual world really doesn't seem to have gone past 1354 (that's the year, not the hour of the day. And I feel even that's erring on the generous side).

Aw stop it now!

Re 1354, well even then many of the logical fallacies Alan relies on were well understood. The odd thing is that he tells us that he works in computers, so you'd expect at least a rudimentary grasp of logic. Yet time and again he stumbles from fallacy to fallacy, and - worse yet - he just ignore the posts that explain that to him and then does it all again.

I can understand that he's so invested in his faith that he cannot countenance being wrong, but I cannot for the life of me see why he wouldn't at least consider not repeating the same basic mistakes in reason whenever he tries to defend his position.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9181 on: January 30, 2016, 07:31:28 PM »
Sarcasm alive and well, I see.

If people against suffering then why abortion or the need for euthanasia?

It isn't all crystal clear is it?

0

ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9182 on: January 30, 2016, 07:33:43 PM »
If the pregnancy cannot reach full term the body stops the pregnancy.
What is it about killing? He sent his Son to give eternal life, why would you who doesn't want it, be bothered about
miscarriages ? Seems rather odd...

1

ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9183 on: January 30, 2016, 07:35:27 PM »
Why are women still becoming pregnant or people catching HIV when we have birth control in the form of condoms.
In this age there is no excuse for unwanted pregnancies or people catching HIV from consensual sex.

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ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9184 on: January 30, 2016, 07:37:09 PM »
So why did you have children when child birth caused you suffering... Pain? Pain is only one form of suffering.
So suffering is a fact of life for many reasons. Should we use euthanasia to kill off those starving to death and
being mistreated or abused in other countries?


I think the truth is that the wise know, suffering has no endorsing.
But sometimes the answers are too difficult to find when it is serious conditions.

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ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9185 on: January 30, 2016, 07:38:08 PM »
Was it his state of MIND or was it a mental illness?

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ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9186 on: January 30, 2016, 07:40:31 PM »
Alan,

It was their nature of when all else fails blame somebody else.
Not exactly doing anything to help their neighbours or make the world a place where suffering is lessening.
Most Christians give and aid to stop the suffering whereas most atheists stay at home and moan about it, whilst doing absolutely nothing to alleviate it. The past week I have been helping a woman who is disabled and in a wheelchair to get her electricity and water back on.  The woman does not feel sorry for herself and she is happy go lucky even in such a dire situation.

Ignore the atheist/pagan who complain and do absolutely nothing to help anyone in the situations they complain about, but blame other people or God for it....

Truth is... if humans got of their fat complaining backsides and actually did something then half the suffering in the world would be gone and the other half would not exist.

1

ippy

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9187 on: January 30, 2016, 07:46:37 PM »
Re 1354, well even then many of the logical fallacies Alan relies on were well understood. The odd thing is that he tells us that he works in computers, so you'd expect at least a rudimentary grasp of logic. Yet time and again he stumbles from fallacy to fallacy, and - worse yet - he just ignore the posts that explain that to him and then does it all again.
Ohhhhhhhh yes. I know exactly what you mean there.

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I can understand that he's so invested in his faith that he cannot countenance being wrong, but I cannot for the life of me see why he wouldn't at least consider not repeating the same basic mistakes in reason whenever he tries to defend his position.   
In view of the preceding I can only assume that it's not that he's unaware, it's that he simply doesn't care.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9188 on: January 30, 2016, 08:06:22 PM »

For some reason though you privilege your strong personal feeling about something above all the evidence that contradicts it
But there has been nothing on this forum which contradicts the logic I have used.

There have been alternative explanations which require human beings to admit that their perception of free will must be an illusion.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9189 on: January 30, 2016, 08:11:08 PM »
But there has been nothing on this forum which contradicts the logic I have used.

There have been alternative explanations which require human beings to admit that their perception of free will must be an illusion.
Yup. And the only one having kittens about that possibility is you.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9190 on: January 30, 2016, 08:22:27 PM »
The odd thing is that he tells us that he works in computers, so you'd expect at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9191 on: January 30, 2016, 08:24:57 PM »
But there has been nothing on this forum which contradicts the logic I have used.

Your 'logic' to date has repeatedly been exposed as being fallacious and, as such, doesn't have to be contradicted since by being fallacious it is flawed from the outset.

You'll need to come up with some 'logic' that isn't inherently fallacious.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9192 on: January 30, 2016, 08:28:56 PM »
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.
So why don't you?

As is so often the case I suspect that it's always when it comes to your religion - something in which you're emotionally rather than intellectually invested - that you turn off all your critical faculties.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 08:32:37 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9193 on: January 30, 2016, 08:31:44 PM »
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.

I think you'll find that others here are comparably qualified, Alan, and even if they don't hold certain specific degrees that doesn't mean they aren't thoughtful, well informed and intelligent people.

In any event these qualifications are no guarantee of sound reasoning, as you have so ably demonstrated in your routine deployment of fallacy after fallacy despite this being pointed out to you repeatedly.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 08:40:05 PM by Gordon »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9194 on: January 30, 2016, 08:37:47 PM »
The bum on the seat is not a very good example.

We are really talking of cause and effect, so the chair is simply causing your bum not to hit the floor.  How it does it is irrelevent to the fact that is is the cause of this behaviour.  Take the chair away, and we can be certain that the bum will hit the floor.

So there are some things my body can only do if initiated by an act of conscious will, for example speech.  Without the act of conscious will, these things will not be enacted.  How this occurs is irrelevent to the fact that the speech can only occur by an act of conscious will.  If deterministic science can't explain how it works, we must look beyond this for the true explanation.

Well, it seems you managed to miss the entire point of my previous post. I was making the point that much of our experience is illusory in quality and we can either live with said illusions or we can try to understand them. If you don't like bums on seats as an example then take two apples out of the fruit basket and try to make them touch each other, simples, yes ?, but of course any science teacher will tell you otherwise if you are up for a deeper understanding. If you watched any of the Eagleman programs on the brain then you will already know the first take home message is this - that the reality we all experience moment to moment, day to day, our reality is all illusion in a sense, it is all fabrication of mind, and the illusion of free will being part of that is all part of the working of human mind. Our will cannot be free, it must serve a purpose and no servant is ever free.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9195 on: January 30, 2016, 08:39:21 PM »
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.
Hillside isn't trotting out the deficient intelligence shtick again is he?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9196 on: January 30, 2016, 08:43:40 PM »
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.

Well show it then.

Many of the points put to you are really quite elementary logic; such as - an omnibenevolent creator God would not go and create a Devil to mess all his hard work up. This is not rocket science, its not string theory, but you seem to struggle to grasp it.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9197 on: January 30, 2016, 08:44:14 PM »
Hillside isn't trotting out the deficient intelligence shtick again is he?
If the cap fits ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9198 on: January 30, 2016, 08:46:09 PM »
If the cap fits ...
Hillbollocks is like music to you isn't it?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9199 on: January 30, 2016, 08:47:27 PM »
I don't normally wish to blow my own trumpet, but your comments are driving me to it.
I have a measured IQ of 173.
I am a member of Mensa.
I have a first class honours degree.
I am a Doctor of Philosophy
I posess four awards for outstanding academic achievement.

I would hope that I do have at least a rudimentary grasp of logic.

But then if you could blow your own trumpet, I suspect you wouldn't be on the forum, but would be off blowing that trumpet of your's.