Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892947 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9275 on: January 31, 2016, 04:22:43 PM »
But can you grasp the idea that some people are profoundly relieved that they gave up Christianity, and some are relieved that they never entertained it?   I was chatting with my wife about this, who went to a Christian boarding school.  Anyway, to cut a long story short, she has sort of recovered from it, but she said what a huge relief it was for her to get away from all that ghastly crime-and-punishment stuff, which evangelicals (and other Christians) push.   A nightmarish world of judgment and punishment and reward, which one might call sadistic.

The premise for your brand of salvation is that souls are otherwise damned.   This is neurotic.

I sympathise with your wife, Wiggs. The problem with being raised by people with this belief is that it inevitably becomes a part - maybe the main part - of the discipline and guidance handed out, and that inevitably leads yo feelings of guilt, self-blame and inadequacy. It takes so much work to undo.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9276 on: January 31, 2016, 04:27:19 PM »
But can you grasp the idea that some people are profoundly relieved that they gave up Christianity, and some are relieved that they never entertained it?   I was chatting with my wife about this, who went to a Christian boarding school.  Anyway, to cut a long story short, she has sort of recovered from it, but she said what a huge relief it was for her to get away from all that ghastly crime-and-punishment stuff, which evangelicals (and other Christians) push.   A nightmarish world of judgment and punishment and reward, which one might call sadistic.

The premise for your brand of salvation is that souls are otherwise damned.   This is neurotic.

Interesting point, Wiggs. I have to say that the older I get, the more I am grateful that I wasn't brought up in a Christian household. I had enough hangups when I was younger without that particular Christian guilt/reward one to add to my confusion. At least, when I was ready, I could slowly start to develop my own relationship with the world. Unfortunately my wife had some Christian involvement when young and, although she would no doubt say that she has left that far behind her, there are occasions when she admits to having some emotional echoes from that time, most of which are negative in their effects.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9277 on: January 31, 2016, 04:51:02 PM »
I sympathise with your wife, Wiggs.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9278 on: January 31, 2016, 04:56:55 PM »
..........And I have my violin and two half onions out.....

Your Christian compassion makes your faith seem so appealing. If only I could recover it I'd get the joy of hanging out with people just like you again.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9279 on: January 31, 2016, 05:12:12 PM »
Your Christian compassion makes your faith seem so appealing. If only I could recover it I'd get the joy of hanging out with people just like you again.

Yes, in one way, it's hilarious how absolutely repellent some Christians are; I suppose they think it gives their faith a kind of robustness, well, I don't know, more like Nasty Inc. 
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9280 on: January 31, 2016, 05:16:00 PM »
I sympathise with your wife, Wiggs. The problem with being raised by people with this belief is that it inevitably becomes a part - maybe the main part - of the discipline and guidance handed out, and that inevitably leads yo feelings of guilt, self-blame and inadequacy. It takes so much work to undo.

When I worked as a psychotherapist, the amount of shit that had to be disinterred for some people, because of their Christian upbringing,  is appalling, but I suppose it's quite productive work.   There are all kinds of extra benefits, like being able to spot a scam.   But the amount of guilt is unbelievable.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9281 on: January 31, 2016, 05:19:56 PM »
Yes, in one way, it's hilarious how absolutely repellent some Christians are; I suppose they think it gives their faith a kind of robustness, well, I don't know, more like Nasty Inc.

What I find disturbing is the way that they discount the feelings of non-Christians and ex-Christians as being of no account. It's as though they regard non-theists as deficient in some way. Well, the 'as though' is probably superfluous.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9282 on: January 31, 2016, 05:21:24 PM »
Yes, in one way, it's hilarious how absolutely repellent some Christians are; I suppose they think it gives their faith a kind of robustness, well, I don't know, more like Nasty Inc.
I see you both like your Christians doormat shaped.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9283 on: January 31, 2016, 05:23:02 PM »
What I find disturbing is the way that they discount the feelings of non-Christians and ex-Christians as being of no account. It's as though they regard non-theists as deficient in some way. Well, the 'as though' is probably superfluous.

Yes, one of the amazing things about AB, is how he discounts other people's views.   It's not as if he tries to refute them even, simply ignores them, and carries on with 'saving souls'.   I would think most people would be completely put off.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9284 on: January 31, 2016, 07:14:51 PM »
I see you both like your Christians doormat shaped.
No - I think the general thrust seems to be that non-dickhead-shaped would be nice.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9285 on: January 31, 2016, 07:24:16 PM »
What I find disturbing is the way that they discount the feelings of non-Christians and ex-Christians as being of no account. It's as though they regard non-theists as deficient in some way. Well, the 'as though' is probably superfluous.
I think there's a signal difference in approach though - whereas for someone like Alan both ex-Christians and never-were-Christians are blinded to the truth by Satan, ex-Christians have the added cachet of never having been true Christians at all in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't have ceased to be Christians. I mean, it's obvious, right?

A thought which has been growing larger in my mind recently based on a number of posts by a (mercifully small) number of different posters is how obnoxious to others as well as presumably personally miserable religion seems to make some people. I would have hoped that as well as providing a worldview, a religion at its best would enlarge a person's mind, make them broader of outlook, more open-minded, more generous of spirit, more giving, more tolerant, more accepting, bigger and wider of head and heart. In certain cases the exact opposite of all these things seems to be in place - it seems to make people rigid, shrill, narrow, crabbed and generally noxious; smaller rather than larger. Whether such people would be as repellent without religion as with it, or whether it's a narrow, inflexible, closed-minded and closed-handed dogma that does it, is difficult to tease out. There's that famous (and for once seemingly true rather than apocryphal) story about the almost impossibly vile Evelyn Waugh, who was asked once how he could be so utterly repugnant a human being while professing to be a Catholic. Oh, just imagine what I would be like if I were not a Catholic, he's said to have replied. "Just think how awful I'd be otherwise" doesn't strike me as much of a recommendation, I have to say. It doesn't seem to have brought him any generosity of spirit or peace of mind, which is what I'd expect of any religious adherence worth its salt, and the same seems to go for more than a few here. The line from an unhappy person to a cruel, mean-spirited and vindictive person is perhaps a little bit too neat and a little bit too pat - in Ben Goldacre's favourite phrase, which I love, "I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that" -, but the posters I have in mind don't seem like happy people at peace with themselves let alone others. The belief in a loving God of goodness that they proclaim doesn't seem to extend to instilling either of those qualities.

Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 07:56:21 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9286 on: January 31, 2016, 07:30:06 PM »
No - I think the general thrust seems to be that non-dickhead-shaped would be nice.
I'm sorry I find talk of ladling on guilt ironic coming from the pair in question.

What does Rhiannon expect? ''I sympathise with you so much that I'm going to give up my faith as well.

If you believe ex Christians above current and lifelong Christians.......whose views are you discounting then?

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9287 on: January 31, 2016, 07:45:09 PM »
I'm sorry I find talk of ladling on guilt ironic coming from the pair in question.

What does Rhiannon expect? ''I sympathise with you so much that I'm going to give up my faith as well.

If you believe ex Christians above current and lifelong Christians.......whose views are you discounting then?

I think few of us expect much from you, Vlad. And you are so very good at fulfilling that.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9288 on: January 31, 2016, 07:46:24 PM »
Ouch  :o
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9289 on: January 31, 2016, 07:50:51 PM »
When it comes to empathy and compassion, I'm not expecting or seeing a lot. But that's not uncommon here.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9290 on: January 31, 2016, 07:56:02 PM »
But can you grasp the idea that some people are profoundly relieved that they gave up Christianity, and some are relieved that they never entertained it?   I was chatting with my wife about this, who went to a Christian boarding school.  Anyway, to cut a long story short, she has sort of recovered from it, but she said what a huge relief it was for her to get away from all that ghastly crime-and-punishment stuff, which evangelicals (and other Christians) push.   A nightmarish world of judgment and punishment and reward, which one might call sadistic.


You have not grasped the essential message of Christianity.  It is not about crime and punishment.  It is about salvation.  God loves you!


John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9291 on: January 31, 2016, 08:00:53 PM »
You haven't taken on board anything that Wiggs, Enki or I have said, Alan. You're talking over us because as far as you are concerned the experiences of those who suffer because of religion are caused by their own failing to 'understand'.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9292 on: January 31, 2016, 08:02:32 PM »
You haven't taken on board anything that Wiggs, Enki or I have said, Alan. You're talking over us because as far as you are concerned the experiences of those who suffer because of religion are caused by their own failing to 'understand'.
It's worse than that; their failure to understand is Satan-inspired ::)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9293 on: January 31, 2016, 08:02:41 PM »
You have not grasped the essential message of Christianity.  It is not about crime and punishment.  It is about salvation.  God loves you!


John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Just wow, wigginhall's reports his wife was traumatised by her Christian upbringing, you ignore the trauma and then blame her for misunderstanding.


Just to help you in the future it is spelt e, m, p, a, t, h, y. I would urge you to learn how to spell it, then you can begin to try and show it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9294 on: January 31, 2016, 08:06:05 PM »
Just wow, wigginhall's reports his wife was traumatised by her Christian upbringing, you ignore the trauma and then blame her for misunderstanding.


Just to help you in the future it is spelt e, m, p, a, t, h, y. I would urge you to learn how to spell it, then you can begin to try and show it.
I get what you are saying Sane......

Christianity traumatises.

You are Christians therefore you must be the traumatisers.

Now be a good bunch of nice Christians and let us punish you.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9295 on: January 31, 2016, 08:14:35 PM »
How do you think the soul thing is panning out?

Anybody 'saved' yet?
Judging by the feedback I would say that my efforts have come to nothing and I should just give up trying.

But in prayer, I perceive God is still wanting me to carry on.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9296 on: January 31, 2016, 08:16:16 PM »
Judging by the feedback I would say that my efforts have come to nothing and I should just give up trying.

But in prayer, I perceive God is still wanting me to carry on.
Alan, you know the old proverb "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again"?

I prefer W.C. Fields's take on it: "Give up. No sense in being a damned fool about it."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9297 on: January 31, 2016, 08:21:46 PM »
You have not grasped the essential message of Christianity.  It is not about crime and punishment.  It is about salvation.  God loves you!

Even if that is the message it ain't the product, which is what you are being told by those who've been through the experience, and whom you are ignoring.

Fortunately your product has passed it's sell-by date although, no doubt, it will hang about on the discount shelves for a while yet - caveat emptor!

Bubbles

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9298 on: January 31, 2016, 08:45:21 PM »
I think overall I was lucky not to have been brought up as a Christian or anything else.

I feel it has given me the freedom to question what I believe, in a way I think I would have found more difficult if certain Christian lessons had been drummed into me.


No one here has to see things the way I do, but I've been lucky enough to be able to make up my own mind about things.

Ok I'm not an atheist but other options are available.  ;)

It amazes me sometimes on the odd occaision when I have encountered the odd person raised as a strict Christian and the thought of questioning what they have been told, frightens them.

I met someone once who was afraid of questioning the Popes decisions  because they said they found the idea frightening.

I'm not sure what they thought was going to happen, bolts of lightening or what.

But it was like a form of conditioning.

It's strange when you meet someone who thinks criticising or hearing criticism of the Pope a frightening thing.

To me he's just an old guy in charge of the Catholic Church.

Obviously some see him, as being Gods representative.

So the awe and fear leads on from that.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 08:50:18 PM by Rose »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9299 on: January 31, 2016, 09:19:28 PM »
AB,

Quote
Judging by the feedback I would say that my efforts have come to nothing and I should just give up trying.

But in prayer, I perceive God is still wanting me to carry on.

No doubt you really think that but, if this god of yours was serious about it, why would he pick someone so ill-equipped to carry out the task? Surely a god who wanted people to believe in him would pick someone who could construct an argument rather than just assert "because I say sos" wouldn't he?

Wouldn't he?

As ever, I see that you've just ignored anything you find to be inconvenient (which also gives the lie to your fantasy about having a doctorate in philosophy by the way) so more in hope than expectation, here it is again: what do you understand the term "logical fallacy" even to mean?

Really, if you've no idea there's no shame in that - just say so, and finally listen to the people prepared to give up the time to explain it to you. After all, once you've finally got it maybe you'll be better equipped to deliver this "soul saving" mission of yours.   
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 09:52:26 PM by bluehillside »
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God