Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3890162 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9475 on: February 03, 2016, 08:40:19 AM »
But isn't the truth that everyone attacks Alan and makes it about Alan because none are educated enough to answer his points.
Shame on all of those attacking Alan.
Alan doesn't have or make points any more than you do; he relies on bald assertion and logical fallacy and that's it. People point this out to him, but Alan doesn't appear to have sufficient wits either to understand what's being said to him or to act otherwise, something he shares with various others here. Perhaps he just doesn't care about presenting a rational case and being able to construct a coherent, logical argument - that would be one explanation.

Another is that it's now a matter of pride with him - by his own admission he's here to save souls, he reckons. People point out his assertions and his fallacies, in fact the general awfulness of what passes for thinking in AlanWorld, and basically point and laugh on a daily basis; for him to slink away now with his tail between his legs would be to accept defeat - to accept that his mission has failed dismally and utterly (presumably because God wants it that way - now wouldn't that mess with his mind). So I suspect sheer pride keeps him here.

The one good point to be said of Alan is that he doesn't copy and paste irrelevant yards of the Bible at a time, put it in a bold typeface and regard it as an argument for everything and anything.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:10:39 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9476 on: February 03, 2016, 09:09:17 AM »
AB,

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My views are neither incoherent or naive.

In your head, no doubt. Your problem though is that when you expect others to take your assertions seriously, some of us find then to be precisely incoherent and naive: incoherent because of your definitional problem, naive because your arguments are fallacious.

And what that leaves you with is, "It's true because I say it's true" - which puts you in the same category as anyone else who believes in anything else with the same rationale.       

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They fit in perfectly with the reality I exist in.

It's the other way around. You reinvent reality so as to fit with your religious beliefs - that's why for example you just ignore the evidence from neuroscience about the nature of consciousness and replace it with a conjecture you call "soul" for which there's no evidence whatever.   

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And I certainly do not have to abandon my respect for the intellectual integrity God has given me.

Of course you do. Presumably in principle at least you can grasp what "logical fallacy" means, you have them pointed out to you when you use them, yet you repeat them over and over again nonetheless. What else would you call that except for the abandonment of intellectual integrity?

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My faith gives me far more than you could ever imagine.

No doubt, as for that matter do the faiths of others in different entities entirely give them far more than you can imagine.

The point though is that there doesn't need to be a word of truth in any of them for that to be the case provided the belief is strong enough.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9477 on: February 03, 2016, 09:27:30 AM »
To an outsider who is happy with their own beliefs and position in life, Chritianity will have little to attract them.
They would be expected to give up some of the simple pleasures in life, and waste time in prayer and attending church.
They might have to start offering help and service to people they do not particularly like.
They might even have to believe in such things as the virgin birth and the resurrection, or the devil!
They will probably suffer rejection, ridicule or even persecution from their fellow human beings.
They will need to listen to the voice of their conscience.
Life will no longer comprise of just existing and dying - it will have true purpose.
Superficial pleasures will be replaced by the true joy of knowing God's love.
You will not be alone, you will become part of Christ's presence on earth along with millions of others.
You will realise the truth that we are not shackled by the constraints of deterministic science, but have been given true free will - freedom to choose our own destiny.
We do not have freedom to choose the truth - it might not be what we like, but the truth will set you free.

This is mostly irrelevant noise.

If something is true, then it is true, if it is not, then it is false. End of story.

We do not, can not, magic fantasy beliefs into being true by revelling in the side effects of its attendant lifestyle.

That it might 'set you free' is no way to validate a proposition.

Appeals to a sense of duty or community values are irrelevant to the epistemic truth of your case.

Such considerations are periphery noise that seduces people into unsubstantiated belief systems, drawn by its cultural values and enigmatic promises of personal enlightenment rather than by its evident underlying truth. If you think this is justification for belief, well maybe there is value in adopting a worldview and a lifestyle that brings personal happiness, but that does require some level of self-deception, and such head games are not for everyone.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:29:31 AM by torridon »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9478 on: February 03, 2016, 09:44:33 AM »
AB,
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You are quite right.

To an outsider who is happy with their own beliefs and position in life, Chritianity will have little to attract them.

Yes.

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They would be expected to give up some of the simple pleasures in life, and waste time in prayer and attending church.

Why waste time doing anything?

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They might have to start offering help and service to people they do not particularly like.

They might, or they might do that anyway. They might also though have to adopt all sorts of morally questionable positions, to sit in judgment on others, to condemn while flaunting their smug self-satisfaction that they are somehow “chosen” etc.
 
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They might even have to believe in such things as the virgin birth and the resurrection, or the devil!

That is a significant downside I agree. The abandonment of reason and evidence it entails is bad enough on its own, but there’s the danger that their new found irrationalism would leach into the rest of their lives too.

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They will probably suffer rejection, ridicule or even persecution from their fellow human beings.

Possibly, though they could well do a lot of that to others too. In secular societies though, by and large if they don’t demand special privileges for their personal faith beliefs they’ll probably be left alone.
 
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They will need to listen to the voice of their conscience.

Many do that in any case, fortunately though not all of us have our consciences determined by the morality of ancient tribal goatherders.

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Life will no longer comprise of just existing and dying - it will have true purpose.

That’s very presumptuous. How would you know that your conviction about a “true” purpose is any more true than the purposes others already find in their lives?

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Superficial pleasures will be replaced by the true joy of knowing God's love.

That’s called reification – yet another logical fallacy. Just asserting your personal, subjective belief to be a general, objective fact does not make it so.

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You will not be alone, you will become part of Christ's presence on earth along with millions of others.

Well, by all means have a go at demonstrating this “Christ’s presence on earth” if you think it to be real but you’d have even more like-minded pals if you joined the Islamic faith, and besides some of us prefer the less divisive membership of humankind as a whole in any case.
   
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You will realise the truth that we are not shackled by the constraints of deterministic science, but have been given true free will - freedom to choose our own destiny.

You might be daft enough to make that mistake yes, but that’s not “realisation” – it’s just mistake.
 
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We do not have freedom to choose the truth - it might not be what we like, but the truth will set you free.

Leaving aside for now the irony of that coming from someone apparently trapped in what are likely to be non-truths, yes you can “choose” to a large degree. When the evidence and the reason point one way, your choice is either to follow it or – as you do – to ignore it in favour of your faith beliefs. And that it seems to me is pretty much the opposite of freedom.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:52:47 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9479 on: February 03, 2016, 10:02:58 AM »
To an outsider who is happy with their own beliefs and position in life, Chritianity will have little to attract them.

That would be because Christianity isn't attractive if you actually think about what the core beliefs actually are.
 
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They would be expected to give up some of the simple pleasures in life, and waste time in prayer and attending church.

I waste time in lots of different ways, so the time thing isn't an issue.
 
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They might have to start offering help and service to people they do not particularly like.

You don't have to be a Christian to help others (whether you like them or not).

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They might even have to believe in such things as the virgin birth and the resurrection, or the devil!

Which aren't believable, and who would want to be in a position of feeling obliged to believe the unbelievable and thus sacrifice their intellectual integrity!

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They will probably suffer rejection, ridicule or even persecution from their fellow human beings.

Depends on how they express their beliefs: to do so as you do, by making up a fallacious narrative around 'souls', is to invite the risk of ridicule.
 
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They will need to listen to the voice of their conscience.

We all do that, Alan, since having a conscience isn't confined to Christians.

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Life will no longer comprise of just existing and dying - it will have true purpose.

Depends on how you define 'purpose', as I type this my 2 year old grandson is playing at my feet, my family are currently all healthy, the sun is shining so there will be a motorcycle ride later this morning, etc etc etc - 'purpose' enough for me.

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Superficial pleasures will be replaced by the true joy of knowing God's love.

That you assume that without 'God' my life is 'superficial' is mildly offensive, since you belittle me by implication, and is dead wrong.

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You will not be alone, you will become part of Christ's presence on earth along with millions of others.

No thanks, I'd rather concentrate on doing the best I can with what I've got (along with millions of others) and have no need of ancient middle-eastern religious superstitions to help me along, especially since I think the descent into insightless fallacious thinking would be to my detriment.

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You will realise the truth that we are not shackled by the constraints of deterministic science, but have been given true free will - freedom to choose our own destiny.

As far as is known we are constrained by naturalism: can't see a problem with that, since in any event there is no alternative.

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We do not have freedom to choose the truth - it might not be what we like, but the truth will set you free.

Deepity of the day!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9480 on: February 03, 2016, 10:06:05 AM »
Quote
Superficial pleasures will be replaced by the true joy of knowing God's love.
That’s called reification – yet another logical fallacy. Just asserting your personal, subjective belief to be a general, objective fact does not make it so.

God's love is not a subjective belief.  It is a reality experienced by millions of Christians.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9481 on: February 03, 2016, 10:14:39 AM »

God's love is not a subjective belief.  It is a reality experienced by millions of Christians.

It is subjective, Alan, since it sure as hell ain't objective: that it is 'a reality experienced by millions of Christians' doesn't make it true and is, and unsurprisingly for you, yet another fallacy.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9482 on: February 03, 2016, 10:17:07 AM »
AB,

Quote
God's love is not a subjective belief.  It is a reality experienced by millions of Christians.

You're just repeating the reification fallacy, and throwing in an argumentum ad populum for good measure.

However many times you assert something to be true, that does not make it true. And whether or not lots of people think something is true does not thereby make it true, especially given the memetic nature of religious beliefs.

What's going on here Alan? You tell us that you have some qualifications and claim intelligence so you must at least be aware conceptually of the nature of logical fallacies, yet time and again you use them.

Why? Is it simply that you think, "I really, really think I'm right about this so I don't care how bad my arguments for it are and nor for that matter will I ever even consider the evidence and reason that undoes me"? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9483 on: February 03, 2016, 10:24:06 AM »
That’s called reification – yet another logical fallacy. Just asserting your personal, subjective belief to be a general, objective fact does not make it so.


God's love is not a subjective belief.  It is a reality experienced by millions of Christians.

and if you have watched the initial episode of Eagleman's The Brain on BBC 4, you will remember the principle take home message is this - that all our day to day experience of reality is a personal and private construction of mind.  Bear that in mind when you ponder on the diversity of religious experience across time and across cultures.  The common denominator is that believers have a brain.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 10:32:01 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9484 on: February 03, 2016, 10:33:14 AM »
  The common demoninator is that believers have a brain.
No - believers have a soul, without which it would be impossible to believe in anything (as with other animals).
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 10:36:19 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9485 on: February 03, 2016, 10:36:58 AM »
No - believers have a soul, without which it would be impossible to believe in anything (as with other animals).

Assertion requiring evidence and reasoning.

Until that is provided, it can safely be ignored as false.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9486 on: February 03, 2016, 10:38:09 AM »
Define soul Alan, how does it differ from consciousness?
It is the same thing.  Without a soul you would just be a biological machine with no conscious awareness.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9487 on: February 03, 2016, 10:44:28 AM »
It is the same thing.  Without a soul you would just be a biological machine with no conscious awareness.

You are not using this supposed IQ of yours to rebut the arguments.

Why is that?

Simply asserting the unevidenced, unreasoned and illogical stuff that you do, does not do you credit.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9488 on: February 03, 2016, 10:57:42 AM »
AB,

You're just repeating the reification fallacy, and throwing in an argumentum ad populum for good measure.

However many times you assert something to be true, that does not make it true. And whether or not lots of people think something is true does not thereby make it true, especially given the memetic nature of religious beliefs.

What's going on here Alan? You tell us that you have some qualifications and claim intelligence so you must at least be aware conceptually of the nature of logical fallacies, yet time and again you use them.

Why? Is it simply that you think, "I really, really think I'm right about this so I don't care how bad my arguments for it are and nor for that matter will I ever even consider the evidence and reason that undoes me"?
But if you experienced God's love, you too would see it as real.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9489 on: February 03, 2016, 10:58:53 AM »
But if you experienced God's love, you too would see it as real.

Yet again, more delusional repetition.

Are you sure you understand reason and logic?

I am thinking you do not have a clue.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9490 on: February 03, 2016, 11:00:32 AM »
AB,

To the tune of "We're Busy Doing Nothing":

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
All the live long day
If I ignore all the evidence
Maybe it’ll go away

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
From down here on my knees
Just keepin’ on repeating
Logical fallaceeees

After all, lots of folks
All think just like I do
So there you have it, silly
It must therefore be true

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
An’ if you show me that I’m wrong
I’ll still jus’ dismiss you
'Cos your singin’ Satan’s song

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
I’m busy jus’ assertin’

(Fade to close)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 11:03:58 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9491 on: February 03, 2016, 11:05:39 AM »
Blue,

Excellent.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9492 on: February 03, 2016, 11:08:35 AM »

Quote
Define soul Alan, how does it differ from consciousness?
It is the same thing.  Without a soul you would just be a biological machine with no conscious awareness.

Then all creatures that have conscious awareness have souls, which is pretty much anything with ears or eyes or nose.  Around and around you go, never ever learning or growing.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9493 on: February 03, 2016, 11:09:27 AM »
AB,

To the tune of "We're Busy Doing Nothing":

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
All the live long day
If I ignore all the evidence
Maybe it’ll go away

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
From down here on my knees
Just keepin’ on repeating
Logical fallaceeees

After all, lots of folks
All think just like I do
So there you have it, silly
It must therefore be true

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
An’ if you show me that I’m wrong
I’ll still jus’ dismiss you
'Cos your singin’ Satan’s song

I’m busy jus’ assertin’
I’m busy jus’ assertin’

(Fade to close)
I see the creative free will of your imagination and soul is working overtime.  :)
Do you really believe that you could come up with this if you were driven only by deterministic chemical activity?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9494 on: February 03, 2016, 11:11:13 AM »
AB,

Quote
I see the creative free will of your imagination and soul is working overtime.  :)
Do you really believe that you could come up with this if you were driven only by deterministic chemical activity?

I just did.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9495 on: February 03, 2016, 11:17:02 AM »
Dear Floo,

Unpleasant, have you promoted God from evil to just unpleasant, what next, God was just a victim of an unhappy childhood.

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9496 on: February 03, 2016, 11:21:43 AM »
Dear Floo,

Unpleasant, have you promoted God from evil to just unpleasant, what next, God was just a victim of an unhappy childhood.

Gonnagle.

 ;D

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9497 on: February 03, 2016, 11:22:07 AM »
It is the same thing.  Without a soul you would just be a biological machine with no conscious awareness.


Then all creatures that have conscious awareness have souls, which is pretty much anything with ears or eyes or nose.  Around and around you go, never ever learning or growing.
I know there are some Christians who believe that animals have souls, but for me I see no evidence of self awareness coupled with free will in animal behaviour.  As I have said before, animals react to their sensory inputs, and these reactions can be defined by built in instinct and learnt experience.  I see no convincing evidence for the conscious perception experienced in humans.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9498 on: February 03, 2016, 11:48:44 AM »
As I have said before, animals react to their sensory inputs, and these reactions can be defined by built in instinct and learnt experience.

We humans instinctively react to our sensory inputs too - try holding your finger over a flame.

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I see no convincing evidence for the conscious perception experienced in humans.

That you aren't personally convinced isn't compelling evidence of anything other than your personal opinion, and as expressed by you is a fallacious argument from ignorance.

If consciousness is no more than a biological function of brains then you'd be foolish to exclude the possibility that some animals have a form of consciousness that is relative to the biology of their brains. It may even be that consciousness in humans is in a sense instinctive, in that the awake and undamaged brain when free of anything sedative can't not be conscious.

We need more information - but whatever that turns out to be I doubt the biologists studying this will announce the discovery of 'souls'.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9499 on: February 03, 2016, 11:53:37 AM »
But if you experienced God's love, you too would see it as real.
There is no such thing as God, let alone his love, whatever you think that means.  There is the wonderful, awe-inspiring fact that we, the human species, have evolved throughout millions of years to become the conscious, living beings we are, the vast majority of whom love and care for family and friends, who do the best they can throughout their lives to try and leave the world a slightly better place than when they were born into it. All discoveries, achievements, breakthroughs and skills which make our lives safer, healthier and more interesting have been done by humans. No god has ever existed. At  last, the human race is beginning to emerge from the long digression it started  to  make into religious beliefs and gods almost as soon as it could speak, but maybe in a thousand years or so the majority of humans will be on the main road knowing the truth - that you avoid - of reality and thereby make even better use of their time alive.
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