Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3758372 times)

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9575 on: February 04, 2016, 10:48:27 AM »
Evolutionary theory is hugely well understood and documented
But it is still only a theory, not a proven fact.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9576 on: February 04, 2016, 10:50:33 AM »
Evolutionary theory is hugely well understood and documented
So is Christianity.  :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9577 on: February 04, 2016, 10:51:43 AM »
But it is still only a theory, not a proven fact.
Uh oh ... this is going to get messy ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9578 on: February 04, 2016, 10:52:53 AM »
So is Christianity.  :)
Only facts about Christianity, not Christian beliefs.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9579 on: February 04, 2016, 10:58:05 AM »
Alan, what do you think the word theory means?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9580 on: February 04, 2016, 10:58:58 AM »
Quote
So why just ignore the evidence in that area, when you don't ignore the evidence that germs cause disease or that gravity makes the apple hit the ground?
The latter example, I might add, being very much less well understood than evolution by a very long way indeed.

But the existence of gravity is a well proven fact that can easily be demonstrated.
The assumption that unguided evolution is solely responsible for bringing human beings into existence is still just conjecture.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9581 on: February 04, 2016, 11:01:56 AM »
But the existence of gravity is a well proven fact that can easily be demonstrated.
Exactly the same as evolution.
Quote
The assumption that unguided evolution is solely responsible for bringing human beings into existence is still just conjecture.
It fits the facts, Alan. There are no alternatives.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9582 on: February 04, 2016, 11:04:44 AM »
Alan, what do you think the word theory means?
A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
(dictionary definition)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9583 on: February 04, 2016, 11:08:08 AM »
It fits the facts, Alan. There are no alternatives.
But there are alternatives if you can appreciate that acts of intelligently guided free will can interact with the otherwise deterministic nature of our universe.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9584 on: February 04, 2016, 11:11:23 AM »
Exactly the same as evolution.
Evolution can be demonstrated to act as a fine tuning method for improving the performance of something which is already complex.

But the assumption that evolution can produce specific complexity is still just unproven conjecture.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9585 on: February 04, 2016, 11:13:06 AM »
A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
(dictionary definition)
I don't know what dictionary you're using but it's not a supposition.

Now that we've brought up evolution we're talking science, so we need to concentrate on the scientific definition of the word theory and not its bastardised version found in everyday life (where it means more or less the same as a guess, or a hunch). Forget that - that's just one of the many regrettable examples of where a scientific word has escaped into the wild to be misused by the general population.

Science now, remember?

Think of a theory as being a bit like an umbrella; it's an over-arching conceptual framework which ties together and explains lots of disparate and discrete facts. So, for example, before 1859 lots and lots of people knew lots of different things about evolution, in the sense of heredity and so forth, but they had no ways of explaining those facts. People had been breeding animals for thousands of years, and knew that doing such-and-such typically gave such-and-such a result, but without knowing why. (To be fair, even Darwin didn't, precisely, because there was no true science of genetics for another century or so). There was nothing to tie them all together and to say "This is what's actually going on." The theory of evolution explains all those different facts by providing a unified conceptual framework that puts them all in the same basket and explaining what does what and how. 

Wikipedia defines a scientific theory as: "... a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is traditionally acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory capability ... The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain ... Scientific theories are usually testable and make falsifiable predictions. They describe the causal elements responsible for a particular natural phenomenon, and are used to explain and predict aspects of the physical universe or specific areas of inquiry (e.g., electricity, chemistry, astronomy). Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the common usage of the word 'theory', which implies that something is a conjecture, hypothesis, or guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative)."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 11:21:48 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9586 on: February 04, 2016, 11:13:34 AM »
But there are alternatives if you can appreciate that acts of intelligently guided free will can interact with the otherwise deterministic nature of our universe.

I don't "appreciate" it because there's no evidence for it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 11:16:20 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9587 on: February 04, 2016, 11:14:15 AM »
Evolution can be demonstrated to act as a fine tuning method for improving the performance of something which is already complex.

But the assumption that evolution can produce specific complexity is still just unproven conjecture.
I know exactly where you get this "specific complexity" tripe from :(
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18182
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9588 on: February 04, 2016, 11:15:49 AM »
But there are alternatives if you can appreciate that acts of intelligently guided free will can interact with the otherwise deterministic nature of our universe.

In seems that your overwhelming need to hang on grimly to your own fallacious narrative has left you immune to reason. 

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9589 on: February 04, 2016, 11:16:52 AM »
In seems that your overwhelming need to hang on grimly to your own fallacious narrative has left you immune to reason.
Has that not been painfully obvious from a very long time ago?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18182
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9590 on: February 04, 2016, 11:18:49 AM »
Evolution can be demonstrated to act as a fine tuning method for improving the performance of something which is already complex.

But the assumption that evolution can produce specific complexity is still just unproven conjecture.

So it seems we can add the TofE to join logical fallacies in the list of things you'd rather not understand.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9591 on: February 04, 2016, 11:23:09 AM »
I don't know what dictionary you're using but it's not a supposition.

Now that we've brought up evolution we're talking science, so we need to concentrate on the scientific definition of the word theory and not its bastardised version found in everyday life (where it means more or less the same as a guess, or a hunch). Forget that - that's just one of the many regrettable examples of where a scientific word has escaped into the wild to be misused by the general population.

Science now, remember?

Think of a theory as being a bit like an umbrella; it's an over-arching conceptual framework which ties together and explains lots of disparate and discrete facts. So, for example, before 1859 lots and lots of people knew lots of different things about evolution, in the sense of heredity and so forth, but they had no ways of explaining those facts. People had been breeding animals for thousands of years, and knew that doing such-and-such typically gave such-and-such a result, but without knowing why. (To be fair, even Darwin didn't, precisely). There was nothing to tie them all together and to say "This is what's actually going on." The theory of evolution explains all those different facts by providing a unified conceptual framework that puts them all in the same basket and explaining what does what and how. 

Wikipedia defines a scientific theory as: "... a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is traditionally acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory capability ... The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain."
My dictionary definition was from the Oxford English Dictionary.

On evolution theory - an interesting take:

“For example, Darwin introduced historicity into science. Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science—the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.”—Mayr, Ernst (renouned evolutionary biologist)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 11:28:04 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9592 on: February 04, 2016, 11:23:17 AM »
AB,

Quote
But it is still only a theory, not a proven fact.

Oh dear. Shakes has dismantled this already, so I won't repeat that. How though is is that at once you claim to be intelligent and educated, and at the same time you can post something like this?

A theory in the scientific rather than the colloquial sense is an extremely powerful thing - it incorporates facts, but it has explanatory power that's verifiable, predictive ability, a falsifiability test etc etc. Germs causing disease is a theory; gravity is a theory; how evolution works is a theory - and of those three, arguably the last one is the best evidenced of all.

To put it another way, to all intents and purpose evolutionary theory is a fact - only if, for example, a rabbit fossil was found in the Cambrian layer (to quote a famous test) would it be disproven.

Good grief!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gonnagle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11106
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9593 on: February 04, 2016, 11:23:42 AM »
Dear Blue,

Quote
Evolutionary theory is hugely well understood

No it's not, go and ask our Leonard or other posters who were brought up short by Nearlysane.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/education/intro-human-evolution

Sane posted the above link.

Quote
Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years.

Ape like, evolution is a very important subject, do we just allow sound bites like, "look we are descended from apes" or do we give the proper definition which is ape like.

Quote
Most scientists currently recognize some 15 to 20 different species of early humans. Scientists do not all agree, however, about how these species are related or which ones simply died out. Many early human species -- certainly the majority of them – left no living descendants. Scientists also debate over how to identify and classify particular species of early humans, and about what factors influenced the evolution and extinction of each species.

Quote
Scientists do not agree,  Scientists also debate over how to identify and classify particular species of early humans

Quote
Humans are primates. Physical and genetic similarities show that the modern human species, Homo sapiens, has a very close relationship to another group of primate species, the apes. Humans and the great apes (large apes) of Africa -- chimpanzees (including bonobos, or so-called “pygmy chimpanzees”) and gorillas -- share a common ancestor that lived between 8 and 6 million years ago. Humans first evolved in Africa, and much of human evolution occurred on that continent. The fossils of early humans who lived between 6 and 2 million years ago come entirely from Africa.


Quote
Homo sapiens have a very close relationship, share a common ancestor that lived between 8 and 6 million years ago.

Not descend from, share a relationship, and when you throw genetics/DNA into the mix, it becomes even more confusing.

So not hugely understood, even by the scientists, no one is arguing we evolved, but it is most definitely not "hugely understood".

Oh and by the way, if anyone replies to this post, keep God, religion and creationists out of your reply.

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9594 on: February 04, 2016, 11:26:39 AM »
AB,

Quote
So is Christianity.  :)

Uh-oh. Go on then - demonstrate "god" without recourse to logical fallacies. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9595 on: February 04, 2016, 11:28:08 AM »
My dictionary definition was from the Oxford English Dictionary.

On evolution theory - an interesting take:

“For example, Darwin introduced historicity into science. Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science—the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.”—Mayr, Ernst

It was bound to be interesting - Mayr was one of the truly great evolutionary theorists of the twentieth century. (His very long life coincided with most of it). He was also the author of a ton of technical books and papers but also one of the best introductory-level layman's guides that you could profit by reading: What Evolution is:

http://goo.gl/g0FyXc

Is there any particular reason why you've emphasised the word tentative?

Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9596 on: February 04, 2016, 11:30:39 AM »
That's what he's been taught, that bit.

I was taught it too but it is possible to unlearn such stuff.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9597 on: February 04, 2016, 11:30:55 AM »
AB,

Quote
But the existence of gravity is a well proven fact that can easily be demonstrated.
The assumption that unguided evolution is solely responsible for bringing human beings into existence is still just conjecture.

Only if you think that fairies not leaving money under pillows is "still just conjecture". The mechanism by which evolution works is well understood and has no need for the introduction of divine intervention to make it so, just as parents taking the lost teeth away is well understood and so there's no need for conjectures about fairies.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10153
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9598 on: February 04, 2016, 11:31:50 AM »
It was bound to be interesting - Mayr was one of the truly great evolutionary theorists of the twentieth century. (His very long life coincided with most of it). He was also the author of a ton of technical books and papers but also one of the best introductory-level layman's guides that you could profit by reading: What Evolution is:

http://goo.gl/g0FyXc

Is there any particular reason why you've emphasised the word tentative?
tentative:
Not certain or fixed
(Oxford English Dictionary)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9599 on: February 04, 2016, 11:32:36 AM »
AB,

Quote
Evolution can be demonstrated to act as a fine tuning method for improving the performance of something which is already complex.

But the assumption that evolution can produce specific complexity is still just unproven conjecture.

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

STOP DIGGING! REALLY, JUST STOP DIGGING WILLYA?
"Don't make me come down there."

God