Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3758361 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9600 on: February 04, 2016, 11:35:23 AM »
tentative:
Not certain or fixed
(Oxford English Dictionary)

Strictly speaking the philosophically astute scientist will say that that applies to everything. However, do you really deny that bacteria cause diseases, or that the Earth orbits the Sun? No, you don't (or at least, I assume and hope you don't. There's no telling, on the basis of some of the things you've come out with). That's because people don't actually live at that level of philosophical sophistication and - if they're rational people - base their beliefs about the world on the observed evidence. That's science.

Again, evolution is better understood than gravitation. We know how evolution actually does work - we have only good, mathematically sound but experimentally undemonstrated ideas as to how gravity works. Your scepticism, admirable in itself, would be better directed at gravity rather than evolutionary biology.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 11:37:49 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9601 on: February 04, 2016, 11:36:29 AM »
AB,

Quote
tentative:
Not certain or fixed
(Oxford English Dictionary)

ALL scientific theories are tentative.

(Walks away, sobbing quietly and looking for a damp towel to wrap around his head prior to a nice lie down...) 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9602 on: February 04, 2016, 11:44:28 AM »
AB,

ALL scientific theories are tentative.

(Walks away, sobbing quietly and looking for a damp towel to wrap around his head prior to a nice lie down...)
So why does Ernst Mayr, recognised as a leading evolutionary biologist, use the word tentative in relation to evolution when comparing it to other sciences in the quote I gave above?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9603 on: February 04, 2016, 11:46:18 AM »
So why does Ernst Mayr, recognised as a leading evolutionary biologist, use the word tentative in relation to evolution when comparing it to other sciences in the quote I gave above?

Probably because as one of the most eminent evolutionary scientists there have ever been he was discussing evolution, perchance?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9604 on: February 04, 2016, 11:53:14 AM »
So for AB, gravity is a fact, and evolution is conjecture.  Therefore God arranges evolution, but not apples falling.  Hey, that's not only God of the gaps, it's also incorrect about the science.   You do get BOGOF with Alan. 
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9605 on: February 04, 2016, 11:55:18 AM »
So is Christianity.  :)

But Alan, the documentation that you rely on for your understanding of Christianity is unreliable. It's shot through with holes. Nothing in it demonstrable. Moreover as our understanding of the demonstrable grows, the documents that you rely on become ever more fragile. And what people understand too is the nature of religion, what it does. We have very reliable and utterly terrifying documentary evidence of the uncountable numbers people killed in the most horrific ways because of it. So when you say that Christianity is well understood, you might reflect on what it is understood all to often to do to people.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9606 on: February 04, 2016, 12:01:33 PM »
AB,

Quote
So why does Ernst Mayr, recognised as a leading evolutionary biologist, use the word tentative in relation to evolution when comparing it to other sciences in the quote I gave above?

No idea - why don't you read what he said and tell us? Inasmuch though as he compares historical reconstruction with prospective theoretical modelling, it seems like an odd criticism as evolutionary theory is precisely used prospectively, for example in the development of new pathogens for medical purposes.

It's not going very well for you is it. Is anything here giving you pause for thought?

Anything at all?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9607 on: February 04, 2016, 12:01:46 PM »
In seems that your overwhelming need to hang on grimly to your own fallacious narrative has left you immune to reason.
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9608 on: February 04, 2016, 12:04:51 PM »
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief.

Then you are so hidebound in fallacies that you are quite simply lost to reason, Alan.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9609 on: February 04, 2016, 12:05:27 PM »
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief.

In all honesty, that is a foolish thing to think.

There's evidence. There's the fact that nobody here is frightened of belief. And plenty of Christians accept the theory of evolution without it denting their faith position - IME the vast majority in fact. So I would question why you feel the need to cling onto this need for 'intelligent design' as proof of your faith when plenty of other people find that their beliefs are robust enough without it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9610 on: February 04, 2016, 12:07:51 PM »
AB,

Quote
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief.

Yeah, it's a powerful thing confirmation bias - it'll make folks come up with all sorts of bonkers statements like this one. Doubtless you'll tell us now why following where the evidence leads is "clinging on", whereas ignoring that evidence and cleaving instead to a conjecture for which there's no evidence whatever isn't.

Won't you?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9611 on: February 04, 2016, 12:08:39 PM »
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief.

Well, yes, the fact that bacteria and viruses evolve to produce new variants which are resistant to drugs - this is because of Satan! 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9612 on: February 04, 2016, 12:09:51 PM »
AB,

No idea - why don't you read what he said and tell us? Inasmuch though as he compares historical reconstruction with prospective theoretical modelling, it seems like an odd criticism as evolutionary theory is precisely used prospectively, for example in the development of new pathogens for medical purposes.

But pathogens are comparitively simple micro organisms which can be subjected to the fine tuning processes found in evolution theory.  To extrapolate such processes to posit that they can be responsible for the development of a human brain is still conjecture.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9613 on: February 04, 2016, 12:11:27 PM »
And I know we've been here before, Alan, but please explain to me why your merciful and compassionate loving God designed the way in which its chosen children give birth to be so risky as to be fraught with danger and untold suffering throughout most of humanity's existence, a situation that still continues now, especially where medical care is poor.

Was Zika intelligently designed?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9614 on: February 04, 2016, 12:12:55 PM »
Alan claims to be intelligent, yet he doesn't seem to employ logic when putting forward his assertions.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9615 on: February 04, 2016, 12:14:22 PM »
Alan, have you heard of the brain-in-a-vat (or jar) thing? It's the sort of philosophical problem they give first-year philosophy students to chew on, to see how well they can construct an argument and counterargument. In essence it postulates that you don't actually exist at all; everything about you, everything you perceive and have ever perceived, every single memory of everything, exists only inside a brain being kept floating in a vat, created by a mad scientist. Everything that you think you perceive is in fact just a virtual reality simulation occurring in said brain in a tank; not just now, but always, because all your memories have been created and implanted. They didn't actually happen; they were made up.

The interesting thing about this is that it can't actually be disproven - if the simulation is good enough, then it's literally impossible to distinguish between that sort of virtual reality and everything that you think you have ever seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelt or experienced in any way. Yes, I know that it looks and it feels as though there's an external world out there of lots of different kinds of stuff, but can you rigorously prove that that's the case? Actually, no, you cannot. Can't be done.

I use this an example to show that while issues about perception constitute a huge and fascinating area of philosophical speculation, nobody who's allowed out in public and is deemed to be able to dress themselves really takes scepticism about the external world to that degree. Nobody actually believes that we're all just brains in vats. Nobody believes it. Nobody thinks that germs don't cause disease. Nobody thinks that objects subject to gravity (as here on Earth) won't fall when dropped. And nobody sane, once acquainted with the evidence, denies evolution either.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 12:58:59 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9616 on: February 04, 2016, 12:15:04 PM »
Well, yes, the fact that bacteria and viruses evolve to produce new variants which are resistant to drugs - this is because of Satan!

Or human sinfulness and the business with the talking snake.

Oh wait, wasn't he something to do with Satan?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9617 on: February 04, 2016, 12:16:04 PM »
In all honesty, I perceive that it is the non believers who cling on grimly to the theory of evolution in order to maintain their non belief.
Why would that be the case when innumerable theistic believers fully accept evolution?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9618 on: February 04, 2016, 12:19:28 PM »
And I know we've been here before, Alan, but please explain to me why your merciful and compassionate loving God designed the way in which its chosen children give birth to be so risky as to be fraught with danger and untold suffering throughout most of humanity's existence, a situation that still continues now, especially where medical care is poor.

Was Zika intelligently designed?

Well, here you come to a big fork in the road - something nasty such as Zika - definitely not designed by God, but by Satan, or whatever.  Something nice, such as sex, yes, designed by God, but as you say, childbirth is a lottery for many women.  Well, God is testing them!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9619 on: February 04, 2016, 12:20:30 PM »
Dear Blue,

Confirmation bias, something we ALL suffer from.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9620 on: February 04, 2016, 12:21:26 PM »
Well, here you come to a big fork in the road - something nasty such as Zika - definitely not designed by God, but by Satan, or whatever.  Something nice, such as sex, yes, designed by God, but as you say, childbirth is a lottery for many women.  Well, God is testing them!

Or punishing them.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9621 on: February 04, 2016, 12:21:30 PM »
Well, here you come to a big fork in the road - something nasty such as Zika - definitely not designed by God, but by Satan, or whatever.  Something nice, such as sex, yes, designed by God, but as you say, childbirth is a lottery for many women.  Well, God is testing them!
So sex is nice, so God did that, but the childbirth that sex leads to smarts a bit (or so I gather, from all the fuss and bother that women make of it) so that was Satan.

That's a hell of a flip-flop back and forth way to live, innit?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9622 on: February 04, 2016, 12:24:42 PM »
So sex is nice, so God did that, but the childbirth that sex leads to smarts a bit (or so I gather, from all the fuss and bother that women make of it) so that was Satan.

That's a hell of a flip-flop back and forth way to live, innit?

But the childbirth thing is the punishment we bear for Eve's sinfulness. At the very least she succumbed to the devil's temptation.


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9623 on: February 04, 2016, 12:25:57 PM »
But who am I to challenge the likes of Darwin, Dawkins and Hitchens?

I am just an 11 plus failure from Thorntree who still believes in God, and who is about to enter his second childhood by playing with his beloved meccano and train sets.

I will bow out now and allow someone else to take this thread up to a magnificent 10000 posts.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 12:48:02 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9624 on: February 04, 2016, 12:27:06 PM »
Dear Shaker,

Child birth smarts abit :P :P

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