Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3758058 times)

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9750 on: February 13, 2016, 02:35:03 PM »
To enable them to discover the truth of course.

Bit strange Alan, you want people to discover the truth, I thought you would want to swell the ranks of your fellow religious believers?

ippy

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9751 on: February 13, 2016, 02:55:53 PM »
ekim,

Thats interesting. It's content free - essentially "the truth is the truth because I says it's the truth, and anyone who doesn't agree just doesn't get it" - and it's pretty much what Alan falls back on in any case when his attempts at reason crash and burn. His (and Jesus's) problem though remains that anyone can assert anything to be true - they still have all their work ahead of them to explain why anyone else should agree with them (though Jesus it seems argues from consequences - "just think of the prize to come if I'm right").

For what it's worth, my best guess is that there was a Jesus only he was a sort of David Koresh figure - genuinely convinced of his divine status but hopelessly wrong about that nonetheless, hence the "why have you forsaken me?" on the cross when perhaps it dawned on him that he'd backed the wrong horse.   
One can speculate about Jesus and his friction with the Jewish establishment, but as an outsider I don't think it helps.  From an insider, Christian, point of view, he appears to have been elevated to God status and a passport to better things and belief in that appears to have taken precedence over what he said ... you only have to look at the Creed.  My view, for what it's worth, is that he gave his disciples a method to attain to a blissful (blessed) divine state called Heaven, which he had already recognised.  It is perhaps the Truth because it is said to be changeless, timeless and always present as opposed to the relative truth which is changeable and in time.  The former arises in conscious inner stillness and the latter is perceived by inner movement (mental activity).  I suspect that Jesus' method was contemplative, the word in the Gospel being 'metanoia' ... meaning 'inwardly beyond mind'.  Unfortunately it has been translated as 'repent', a nice little money earner in the past, no doubt.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9752 on: February 13, 2016, 03:02:01 PM »
But it isn't the truth. It's your belief that it is, but it's just a belief.

Interesting that you seem to equate discovering truth with turning off one's critical faculties, whereas in the real world it's the exact opposite.

Alan probably thinks he's fighting the works of the devil when he's talking to people that live in the real world,
I'll bet he thinks in some way or another he's ratcheting up his heavenly brownie points by battling against the non-religious throng on his thread.

Another thing, I have no quarrel with him or his religiosity, other than it's an illusory idea, the most annoying thing he and people like him do is when they indoctrinate this nonsense into the heads of the oh so vulnerable young children and then like him they loose the ability to reason where religion is concerned.

Alan you're a prime example of how damaging indoctrination is to the very young, the most successful type of   indoctrination is when those indoctrinated are worked on before the have reached the age where they have acquired the ability to challenge, where the obvious tell tale is they don't even think they have been indoctrinated, like you Alan, where rational logical are chucked at you by the bucket load and it's not like you can't understand any of it, you continue to refuse to let yourself say you understand and then go back to your primitive man's version of the great Jew Jew in the sky or whatever it is. 

ippy


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9753 on: February 13, 2016, 06:46:10 PM »
Matthew 15:24.
in context:

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9754 on: February 13, 2016, 06:49:19 PM »
And?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9755 on: February 13, 2016, 07:03:42 PM »
And?

Well, obviously, Jesus made a mistake at first and then accepted the woman's correction, although I know Alan didn't mean it that way.  8)

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9756 on: February 13, 2016, 07:19:24 PM »
Shaker a Rhi, went a cherry pickin. Too funny

"As the father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
AND OTHER SHEEP I have, which are not of this fold: THEM ALSO I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."   John 10:15, 16

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9757 on: February 13, 2016, 07:22:33 PM »
Goodness, what a contradictory, topsy-turvy mess!

So much for an omnipotent and omniscient deity ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9758 on: February 13, 2016, 07:23:10 PM »
Shaker a Rhi, went a cherry pickin. Too funny

"As the father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
AND OTHER SHEEP I have, which are not of this fold: THEM ALSO I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."   John 10:15, 16

That would depend on how authentic you believe John's Gospel to be. The Jesus in it is so different that some serious scholarship casts doubt over the authenticity of pretty much every word he utters in it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9759 on: February 13, 2016, 07:32:42 PM »
in context:

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


In context Jesus is referring to Gentiles as dogs. Or am I missing something?

Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9760 on: February 13, 2016, 08:19:51 PM »
Alan's 'truth' could be, join the Catholic Church and risk having a paedophile priest sexually abuse your children or grandchildren! >:(

Play another tune floo.  Is there something wrong with you?  You are different somehow.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9761 on: February 13, 2016, 08:22:43 PM »
In context Jesus is referring to Gentiles as dogs. Or am I missing something?

Depends how literally you take it :).  I interpret it as Jesus saying there's little point in saying anything that will fall on deaf ears.  Then the woman impressed him with her reply, showing she was receptive.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9762 on: February 13, 2016, 08:26:13 PM »
Depends how literally you take it :).  I interpret it as Jesus saying there's little point in saying anything that will fall on deaf ears.  Then the woman impressed him with her reply, showing she was receptive.

Well yes, there are all kinds of ways it can be interpreted. Hand on heart though, which is the most likely?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9763 on: February 13, 2016, 08:29:39 PM »
Depends how literally you take it :).  I interpret it ...

Not to be obnoxious or anything, but would the word of the Creator to its creation be so ambiguous as to need it to be left up to your own individual interpretation?

Could it not be, well, clearer?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9764 on: February 13, 2016, 08:36:45 PM »
Not to be obnoxious or anything, but would the word of the Creator to its creation be so ambiguous as to need it to be left up to your own individual interpretation?

Could it not be, well, clearer?

For once for a Bible passage I think that one is pretty clear. But if you have a particular image of Jesus and his message it doesn't fit, so you then have to add in extra interpretation - it was a test, it wasn't meant literally and so forth.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9765 on: February 14, 2016, 09:51:53 AM »
Not to be obnoxious or anything, but would the word of the Creator to its creation be so ambiguous as to need it to be left up to your own individual interpretation?

Could it not be, well, clearer?
Does this not help to confirm the authenticity of the gospel writers?  If it was made up they would surely have made it much clearer.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9766 on: February 14, 2016, 09:53:31 AM »
Does this not help to confirm the authenticity of the gospel writers?
No.
Quote
If it was made up they would surely have made it much clearer.
That doesn't follow.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9767 on: February 14, 2016, 09:59:25 AM »
Floo,

Quote
Alan's 'truth' could be, join the Catholic Church and risk having a paedophile priest sexually abuse your children or grandchildren! >:(

That's unfair. However poor and confused his reasoning, there's no suggestion that Alan would wish that on anyone. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9768 on: February 14, 2016, 10:00:33 AM »
Floo,

That's unfair. However poor and confused his reasoning, there's no suggestion that Alan would wish that on anyone.
I don't think she was claiming that Alan wishes it on anyone, though.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9769 on: February 14, 2016, 10:07:46 AM »
Shakes,

Quote
I don't think she was claiming that Alan wishes it on anyone, though.

She does if she thinks that's his "truth".
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9770 on: February 14, 2016, 10:25:03 AM »
Shakes,
She does if she thinks that's his "truth".
No, I see absolutely nothing in Floo's words to imply this.

1. By his own admission Alan thinks he's here to save souls - to convert people to what he regards as the truth, that is, to become Christian.

2. Though not explicitly stated, it's a reasonable supposition that Alan desires people to become Catholic (like him) and members of the church that he regards as the ultimate repository of truth, rather than any other brand of Christian.

3. Floo was referring to the unfortunately only too well known scandal of child rape by Catholic priests and its cover-up. I see nothing in Floo's words to suggest that she thinks Alan desires this to happen - she was speaking descriptively not prescriptively; about what has happened, not what she imagines Alan wants to happen.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 10:30:50 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9771 on: February 14, 2016, 10:30:55 AM »
Floo,

That's unfair. However poor and confused his reasoning, there's no suggestion that Alan would wish that on anyone.

I was not for one second suggesting Alan supports paedophile priests. However I find it hard to understand how anyone can support an organisation which has tolerated those scum!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9772 on: February 14, 2016, 11:16:54 AM »
Shakes,

Quote
No, I see absolutely nothing in Floo's words to imply this.

1. By his own admission Alan thinks he's here to save souls - to convert people to what he regards as the truth, that is, to become Christian.

2. Though not explicitly stated, it's a reasonable supposition that Alan desires people to become Catholic (like him) and members of the church that he regards as the ultimate repository of truth, rather than any other brand of Christian.

3. Floo was referring to the unfortunately only too well known scandal of child rape by Catholic priests and its cover-up. I see nothing in Floo's words to suggest that she thinks Alan desires this to happen - she was speaking descriptively not prescriptively; about what has happened, not what she imagines Alan wants to happen.

Well, Floo could tell us what she meant by it but I read "Alan's 'truth' could be, join the Catholic Church and risk having a paedophile priest sexually abuse your children or grandchildren! >:(" to mean that the upside of joining the RC church is worth the risk of being abused if you do. To be fair, she used "could be" rather than "is", but the implication that Alan thinks the risk of child abuse a price worth paying is there nonetheless.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9773 on: February 14, 2016, 11:18:49 AM »
Floo,

Quote
I was not for one second suggesting Alan supports paedophile priests. However I find it hard to understand how anyone can support an organisation which has tolerated those scum!

Presumably you can "support" the beliefs of an organisation while deploring the behaviour of some of its officials.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9774 on: February 14, 2016, 11:28:39 AM »
Floo,

Presumably you can "support" the beliefs of an organisation while deploring the behaviour of some of its officials.

Hmmmmmmmmmm! The behaviour of some of its officials appear to have been condoned, rather than condemned, by that organisation.