Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Which is rather alarming.

Deeply disturbing, I'd say.

[Leonard James]

Deeply disturbing, I'd say.

And very, very sad. Alan is, in all other aspects of life a balanced, sensible person, and it is very sad that he has succumbed to all the rubbish invented by people of long ago to explain things they didn't understand.

[torridon]

The existence of the devil is as real to me as the existence of New Zealand is to you.

How so ?

We can attest to the existence of New Zealand by any number of means, but with no such objective evidence for devils what grounds do you have for claiming the devil is a reality as opposed to a belief ?

[Rhiannon]

And very, very sad. Alan is, in all other aspects of life a balanced, sensible person, and it is very sad that he has succumbed to all the rubbish invented by people of long ago to explain things they didn't understand.

It's not something I understand, Len, because IME the majority of believers don't think as Alan does.

[Leonard James]

It's not something I understand, Len, because IME the majority of believers don't think as Alan does.

I realise that, and it all boils down to the genes we inherit in the genetic lottery. Even our reactions to environmental influences are all a matter of genetics, some people being more influenced by them than others.

[ekim]

The existence of the devil is as real to me as the existence of New Zealand is to you.

Perhaps it is better to see the devil as your own ego rather than project it externally and deny responsibility for your own temptations.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The existence of the devil is as real to me as the existence of New Zealand is to you.

Sadly, I believe you. While for thinking people asserting "the devil" is as mad as a box of frogs, the important part of that sentence is, "for me". For you I'm don't doubt the devil is a real as Jack Frost is real for Fred or the Man in the Moon is real for Charlie. We can each have personal, subjective beliefs about anything if we want to.   

The difference though between these types of belief and "believing" in the fact of New Zealand is that, for the latter, our subjective opinions have no relevance - we can each visit the place if we want to, which makes New Zealand an objective truth.

Your problem in other words is not so much that you believe in palpable nonsense as personal truths, but rather that you pitch up here (and presumably elsewhere too) and assert them to be objective truths for the rest of us too. And as your arguments for them collapse in heaps of logical fallacy when you try them, assertion is I'm afraid all that's left to you.

Keep it you yourself, and it's no-one's business but your own; overreach by insisting that this devil is true for me too though and you'll keep crashing and burning. Sorry, but there it is.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Or you can take the sensible view that there is no god at all and that humans are just a mixture of good and bad. 

But then unless you are an ignoramus you would want to investigate the nature of Good and Bad further.................Oh Leonard....I see that you don't.

[Shaker]

But then unless you are an ignoramus you would want to investigate the nature of Good and Bad further

We have various disciplines for that - psychology, primatology, anthropology, sociology, criminology ...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We have various disciplines for that - psychology, primatology, anthropology, sociology, criminology ...

Yes all which start with the assumption of Good and bad and therefore never actually get to the bottom of morality or which are actually behavioural sciences which don,t really deal with Good or bad although altruism may be touched on within a tight scientific definition.

[Khatru]

The existence of the devil is as real to me as the existence of New Zealand is to you.

Yet, if the devil really exists then surely he must be the dumbest entity in the universe?

Here we have a being who was the brightest in all creation (bar God). Satan would have experienced first-hand the absolute goodness and omnipotent authority god has. Why would Satan want to rebel against such unmediated love? Satan would have known more than anyone, the utter futility of trying to defy God

Yet he chose to rebel against such goodness and light?

Nothing can be that stupid; ergo, he doesn't exist.

[Leonard James]

But then unless you are an ignoramus you would want to investigate the nature of Good and Bad further.................Oh Leonard....I see that you don't.

As I have already explained many times, "good" and "bad" are just words we use to describe some thing or action according to our personal moral framework. They are entirely relative to the individual's ideas. Some things are pretty well universally accepted as "good" or "bad", others vary according to custom, culture, religion, etc.

What on earth you mean by "investigate" them I have no idea.

[ippy]

I can assure you, ippy, that there are people much cleverer than I who are aware of the existence of the devil.

Well Allan, you're all off of your trolleys then and not so clever, what a stupid thing to believe it's not as though the god idea isn't potty enough, there's even the stage 2, devil nut jobs as well?

It's only because of history and the numbers that go for god belief supporting it as something somewhere near to sane, where as it's as sane as believing Elvis is still around and no more sane than that, you must know this but wont admit to it.

Such a ridiculous idea, a devil, what a load of old cods?

You must have two brains one for your ritualistic nonsense and another to deal with reality, split personality stuff, best try to capture the market for the necessary silver foil Alan.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As I have already explained many times, "good" and "bad" are just words we use to describe some thing or action according to our personal moral framework.

If that is so then you have no business to criticise people on moral grounds for anything.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Khatru,

Nothing can be that stupid; ergo, he doesn't exist.

Well we exist, ergo.................................

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

If that is so then you have no business to criticise people on moral grounds for anything.

On the contrary! I have the right to criticise anybody who does something which I consider to be immoral, just as everybody else does.

[wigginhall]

Yet, if the devil really exists then surely he must be the dumbest entity in the universe?

Here we have a being who was the brightest in all creation (bar God). Satan would have experienced first-hand the absolute goodness and omnipotent authority god has. Why would Satan want to rebel against such unmediated love? Satan would have known more than anyone, the utter futility of trying to defy God

Yet he chose to rebel against such goodness and light?

Nothing can be that stupid; ergo, he doesn't exist.

That's an interesting argument, which I tend to agree with.  But it reminded me of Paradise Lost, where Milton puts forward an equally interesting point, which can be summed up in one famous line in that poem, 'better to reign in hell than serve in heaven'. 

In other words, Satan is on a power trip, which over-rides intelligence.   Well, I think that can happen. 

However, there are surely other reasons to disbelieve in Satan - for example, it's odd to accept that something exists because of an assertion by somebody (e.g. Satan is more real than New Zealand).   Well, obviously, I can go to NZ.  How do I get in touch with Satan?   Answers on a postcard to Paradise Villa, Mokopuni Drive, Kaua'i, Hawaii. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Wigs,

How do I get in touch with Satan?

Easy, in fact 10 Downing St must be walking distance for you.

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Len,

On the contrary! I have the right to criticise anybody who does something which I consider to be immoral, just as everybody else does.

Quite. One of the aspects of the objective morality daftness is that it's a kind of circular argument from consequences: "if it's not celestially ordained you can't have a meaningful opinion on it, therefore...um... as my opinions about morality are meaningful they must be celestially ordained!" It's a bit like claiming a speed limit not be be a real speed limit at all because it's not an absolute written in the stars. 

Might make an interesting defence in court though: "I move Your Honour that this prosecution is flawed because PC Jenkins pulled that 30mph rule out of his arse".

Judge: "Well, Mr - er - Troll Boy (are you one of the Norfolk Troll Boys by the way? No? Ah well...) as no-one claims speed limits to be universal, cast iron, gold standard, unchangeable rules of safe travelling speed but rather they're the collective will of the society in which they apply enabled by various codes of behaviour that'll be case dismissed then. Six months, plus another six to run consecutively for egregious use of the straw man!"

T-B (for it is he) as he's led sobbing from the dock: "Er, it was the devil wot made me do it. I was dropped on me 'ed as a baby! Errrr...NON SEKWITURE, NON SEKWITURE!!! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!"



 

[jeremyp]

Dear Wigs,

Easy, in fact 10 Downing St must be walking distance for you.

Gonnagle.

That it might be, but getting inside is a lot harder.

[Leonard James]

Len,

Quite. One of the aspects of the objective morality daftness is that it's a kind of circular argument from consequences: "if it's not celestially ordained you can't have a meaningful opinion on it, therefore...um... as my opinions about morality are meaningful they must be celestially ordained!" It's a bit like claiming a speed limit not be be a real speed limit at all because it's not an absolute written in the stars. 

Might make an interesting defence in court though: "I move Your Honour that this prosecution is flawed because PC Jenkins pulled that 30mph rule out of his arse".

Judge: "Well, Mr - er - Troll Boy (are you one of the Norfolk Troll Boys by the way? No? Ah well...) as no-one claims speed limits to be universal, cast iron, gold standard, unchangeable rules of safe travelling speed but rather they're the collective will of the society in which they apply enabled by various codes of behaviour that'll be case dismissed then. Six months, plus another six to run consecutively for egregious use of the straw man!"

T-B (for it is he) as he's led sobbing from the dock: "Er, it was the devil wot made me do it. I was dropped on me 'ed as a baby! Errrr...NON SEKWITURE, NON SEKWITURE!!! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!"

 

Fatty Arsebuckle does have difficulty in thinking outside his box.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Len,

Quite. One of the aspects of the objective morality daftness is that it's a kind of circular argument from consequences: "if it's not celestially ordained you can't have a meaningful opinion on it, therefore...um... as my opinions about morality are meaningful they must be celestially ordained!" It's a bit like claiming a speed limit not be be a real speed limit at all because it's not an absolute written in the stars. 

Might make an interesting defence in court though: "I move Your Honour that this prosecution is flawed because PC Jenkins pulled that 30mph rule out of his arse".

Judge: "Well, Mr - er - Troll Boy (are you one of the Norfolk Troll Boys by the way? No? Ah well...) as no-one claims speed limits to be universal, cast iron, gold standard, unchangeable rules of safe travelling speed but rather they're the collective will of the society in which they apply enabled by various codes of behaviour that'll be case dismissed then. Six months, plus another six to run consecutively for egregious use of the straw man!"

T-B (for it is he) as he's led sobbing from the dock: "Er, it was the devil wot made me do it. I was dropped on me 'ed as a baby! Errrr...NON SEKWITURE, NON SEKWITURE!!! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!"



 

Hillside's lost it.

[Sebastian Toe]

Hillside's lost it.

Vlad never had it!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad never had it!

I think you are feeling a little funny.

[Sebastian Toe]

I think you are feeling a little funny.

I think that you got on-stage after it wore off!