Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3757280 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9900 on: February 19, 2016, 01:09:23 PM »
To say "I don't know" to the question of what sources our free conscious thought is an easy cop out for non believers.
It's not a cop-out Alan; it's that thing which to you is intellectual kryptonite - intellectual humility. It's an awareness of limitations coupled with the determination not to regard the search as over once and for all - the Alan Burns way - but to keep up with the search for real, not imagined, answers.
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Would it not be closer to the truth to concede that it is not possible to generate conscious free thoughts purely from deterministic chemical activity?
No, because we have no grounds for definitively ruling any such thing out as not possible.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9901 on: February 19, 2016, 01:11:43 PM »
To say "I don't know" to the question of what sources our free conscious thought is an easy cop out for non believers.
Would it not be closer to the truth to concede that it is not possible to generate conscious free thoughts purely from deterministic chemical activity?

Eeerm, no.  If we all took that attitude we would still be grunting in caves.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9902 on: February 19, 2016, 01:13:31 PM »
To say "I don't know" to the question of what sources our free conscious thought is an easy cop out for non believers.
Would it not be closer to the truth to concede that it is not possible to generate conscious free thoughts purely from deterministic chemical activity?

No,because that is a claim to knowledge about something to which you have just said I don't know. You have also inserted the free thoughts as facts which is not shown and feels to me dishonest.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9903 on: February 19, 2016, 01:15:05 PM »
It's not a cop-out Alan; it's that thing which to you is intellectual kryptonite - intellectual humility. It's an awareness of limitations coupled with the determination not to regard the search as over once and for all - the Alan Burns way - but to keep up with the search for real, not imagined, answers. No, because we have no grounds for definitively ruling any such thing out as not possible.

Or indeed definitively ruling in the concept of free thoughts as Alan does the begging the question fallacy

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9904 on: February 19, 2016, 01:33:08 PM »
It's not a cop-out Alan; it's that thing which to you is intellectual kryptonite - intellectual humility. It's an awareness of limitations coupled with the determination not to regard the search as over once and for all - the Alan Burns way - but to keep up with the search for real, not imagined, answers. No, because we have no grounds for definitively ruling any such thing out as not possible.
But where is the "you" in all this?
In physical terms we are just a biological machine with replaceable parts.  There is nothing in this physical model to define the continuity which comprises "you".  It is the "Trigger's broom" syndrome.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9905 on: February 19, 2016, 01:37:37 PM »
But where is the "you" in all this?
In physical terms we are just a biological machine with replaceable parts.  There is nothing in this physical model to define the continuity which comprises "you".  It is the "Trigger's broom" syndrome.
No it isn't, because some of those parts are clearly not replaceable in the sense that I presume you intend. Can a 100 year-old person remember something from the most distant days of their infancy? How do you think that this phenomenon is to be explained?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9906 on: February 19, 2016, 01:43:37 PM »
I AM NOT A BROOM I AM A HUMAN BEING

Trigger then becomes God, deep man!! like 50,000 leagues beneath the sea man!!

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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9907 on: February 19, 2016, 02:02:04 PM »
No it isn't, because some of those parts are clearly not replaceable in the sense that I presume you intend. Can a 100 year-old person remember something from the most distant days of their infancy? How do you think that this phenomenon is to be explained?

People can often remember events in early infancy as I can, but can't remember what they did yesterday!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:45:19 PM by Floo »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9908 on: February 19, 2016, 02:40:26 PM »
But my intellect tells me that there must be something greater than human intellect.

That's old Nick talking to you, Alan.  The adversary is a cunning opponent, and will waylay you in this way with cunning, seemingly apparently clever talk, but listen to one who knows, dem's devil words, I smell brimstone and sulphur when you talk.   Now I will have to fumigate myself with appropriate medicinal herbs and whisky and stuff. 
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9909 on: February 19, 2016, 02:47:51 PM »
To say "I don't know" to the question of what sources our free conscious thought is an easy cop out for non believers.
Would it not be closer to the truth to concede that it is not possible to generate conscious free thoughts purely from deterministic chemical activity?

Wow, in other words, let's all commit intellectual suicide and give up looking for solutions.  No thanks.   
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9910 on: February 19, 2016, 02:58:37 PM »
No it isn't, because some of those parts are clearly not replaceable in the sense that I presume you intend. Can a 100 year-old person remember something from the most distant days of their infancy? How do you think that this phenomenon is to be explained?
Memories are defined by data held in brain cells.  This data can be copied or transferred to other cells, or it can be reacted to.  But this data has no meaning until it is translated into something perceived by conscious awareness.  It is conscious awareness which defines the "you" in your body and gives us continuity.  I can recall the colour of the inside of my pram from my memory cells, and it is the same "I" which first perceived it over sixty years ago.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9911 on: February 19, 2016, 03:01:09 PM »
But where is the "you" in all this?
In physical terms we are just a biological machine with replaceable parts.  There is nothing in this physical model to define the continuity which comprises "you".  It is the "Trigger's broom" syndrome.

Well sort of but since the Trigger's Broom paradox is about a concept, not a actual thing claimed to be existing, then it's a category mistake about your claim as well as an incorrect title as it is a paradox not a syndrome.


So let's break this down. The question in the Trigger's Broom paradox is that the award is being given given for it being the original broom that at that point is assumed to be the same head and handle have both been replaced X times, in what sense is it the original broom. It is always The broom owned by Trigger and he has never received an actual replacement broom.

While this is an interesting philosophical nicety the issue is about the continuity not about there being an actual thing about Trigger's broom that is separate from its physicality. There are questions that relate to how we talk about such things a i/you which relate to continuity, but the claim for an actual separate thing you are making a soul is not related to Tigger's broom, as that is merely a label attached to an object.

You would be better suggesting something like Plato's Broom, though that too has problems. If you were to posit an ideal Platonic broom, it would at least have the benefit of not being dependent on the physical and having an existence as a concept beyond the physical. Leaving aside the problems of what that means which I would suggest were never addressed by Plato's, it still leaves you with an issue as it posits only one such ideal broom concept (and possibly a concept that includes all such cleaning equipment which are used with a sweeping motion), not a myriad of them that is needed for your position.


So having moved through your misuse of the paradox, and pointed out issues even were we to tart up your ideas, let's look at what you are really attempting here which is to note that because we have a concept of the 'i' which is more than a label, i.e. this has an existence as well as continuity of label, then there is such a thing that actually had existence. Unfortunately this is, as has been pointed out a number of times to you, an example of the reification fallacy in that we cannot state existence simply by referring to it being talked about - so the mention of unicorns farting rainbows does not mean they exist.


The concept of the individual though is one that you are right to point out forms crucial basis for almost all of what we talk about. And there feels like there is a power in that argument. Add to that what 'i' feel is my experience and we are back at the reason why Leonard joins you in a belief in free will. It's not just hard to believe intellectually, it might well b impossible to believe in any sense at all, hence the cogito. And while I might start I think the cogito is better stated as 'there is thinking', the powerful charge that deep down 'I am thinking that there is thinling' is hard to deny.


And yet, we have to balance that we know that whatever is thinking can apparently be completely wrong, both from external viewing and internal experience. We know that what we state as knowledge, again externally and internally, is subject to change (hence gives us the Socratic view of epitemology). And worse we know that what evidence for what happens neuroligically does not tie in with the idea that there is this coherent, continuous 'thing' separate from the label.

As a final thought in what is a way longer post than I intended, all the neuroligical evidence in the world will never effectively indicate that we have no such thing as your soul since it is already defined in your approach as non naturalistic. Free will, when defined, as neither determined or random is removed from being falsifiable. That's the reason why for this as with your other beliefs in miracles, you need to come up with some methodology that works for those. I cannot rule out your claims but in the lack of a methodology, I cannot rule them in either. Bluehillside likes to compare such claims to guesses but a guess is that you weigh between 8 and 16 stone. That there is something that cannot be measured, falsified, or given a definition that has any recognisable attributes is not even a guess.
 

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9912 on: February 19, 2016, 03:04:09 PM »
Memories are defined by data held in brain cells.  This data can be copied or transferred to other cells, or it can be reacted to.  But this data has no meaning until it is translated into something perceived by conscious awareness.  It is conscious awareness which defines the "you" in your body and gives us continuity.  I can recall the colour of the inside of my pram from my memory cells, and it is the same "I" which first perceived it over sixty years ago.

And this means that there is a soul, and this was injected by God, and I just know all this, aren't I lucky, and if I say it 300 times, it seems more and more true.   NB., the devil had nothing to do with this post, guaranteed by God. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9913 on: February 19, 2016, 03:13:33 PM »
Memories are defined by data held in brain cells.  This data can be copied or transferred to other cells, or it can be reacted to.  But this data has no meaning until it is translated into something perceived by conscious awareness.  It is conscious awareness which defines the "you" in your body and gives us continuity.  I can recall the colour of the inside of my pram from my memory cells, and it is the same "I" which first perceived it over sixty years ago.

Continuity would be true of any data (covered in detail in my reply on Trigger's Broom). You are not trying to show continuity (though there are issues with that as well). You are trying to show that there is something that exists over and beyond the label 'I' that has some form of existence outside the physical.

BTW given any evidence we have on memory it is subject to change and being incorrect.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 03:20:59 PM by Nearly Sane »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9914 on: February 19, 2016, 03:28:05 PM »
Alan seems to rely on the gap between our knowledge of the brain, and our conscious awareness.  But is this gap there for all time?  There is plenty of research into changes in the brain, as we carry out different tasks;  for example, if you get better at a video game, the brain changes. 

Similarly, the brain 'lights up' in different areas, when you think about something.   It's likely that eventually you will be able to control stuff by thinking, e.g. the TV. 

Ah, but Alan will come with another gap.   You couldn't watch TV unless there was a special spectator watching the images in the brain, and this special spectator is put there by guess who?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9915 on: February 19, 2016, 03:36:17 PM »
The gap on this sort of stuff can never be closed. Zeus could still be doing the lightning for all we know. Having a naturalistic method means that we can only investigate naturalistic causes, it's a built in assumption.

That doesn't mean that there are only naturalistic causes, just that currently anything other than those are adrift in Loch Methodlessness

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9916 on: February 19, 2016, 03:40:17 PM »

And what drives my conscious free will?
The Devil?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9917 on: February 19, 2016, 03:42:00 PM »
The gap on this sort of stuff can never be closed. Zeus could still be doing the lightning for all we know. Having a naturalistic method means that we can only investigate naturalistic causes, it's a built in assumption.

That doesn't mean that there are only naturalistic causes, just that currently anything other than those are adrift in Loch Methodlessness

Good point.  There is also shifting the goalposts; have I told you about my theory that the I is in fact put there by the devil, in order to seduce us away from metaphysics?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9918 on: February 19, 2016, 03:52:17 PM »
Good point.  There is also shifting the goalposts; have I told you about my theory that the I is in fact put there by the devil, in order to seduce us away from metaphysics?

Without going all interconnected on your ass, I was thinking about the question of negation triggered by Shaker's pantheism post. In different prisms, I think there are echoes in john's post on resurrection,Sriram on the evilosity of nookie, and even AB's on the temptations of JC. Perhaps Alan was one letter out and the temptation is not self deification but self reification.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9919 on: February 19, 2016, 03:57:41 PM »
My overriding problem with Alan's ideas is that they never involve any sort of explanation. To simply assert a 'soul' seems to me to be attempting to fill a gap(if indeed it actually exists) with a word which has no explanatory value. We are never told how the soul explains consciousness, how it reacts to/informs the brain, where it is located, how it functions etc. As I see it, it could just as well be named x the unknown for all the use it is.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9920 on: February 19, 2016, 04:04:44 PM »
enki - yes, it's particularly ironic since Alan criticizes science, or neurology, for not explaining the connection between neurons and 'conscious awareness'.   But then he suggests the soul, as if that does explain things! 

As you say, how does the soul connect with the brain?  Does every neuron have a little soul-let attached to it?   How could we find the soul?   How does God plant it there?  How does God paint the stripes on zebras?
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9921 on: February 19, 2016, 04:06:52 PM »
My overriding problem with Alan's ideas is that they never involve any sort of explanation. To simply assert a 'soul' seems to me to be attempting to fill a gap(if indeed it actually exists) with a word which has no explanatory value. We are never told how the soul explains consciousness, how it reacts to/informs the brain, where it is located, how it functions etc. As I see it, it could just as well be named x the unknown for all the use it is.
Exactly. It's the fifth wheel syndrome, isn't it - it's very definitely there, but it adds nothing and does no useful work.

I suspect that for Alan to call anything X would be to sail much too close to admitting that some things are unknown and that "I don't know" is at present the only honest, non-gap-plugging answer, something that we know from today's evidence he regards as a "cop-out."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9922 on: February 19, 2016, 04:08:50 PM »
enki - yes, it's particularly ironic since Alan criticizes science, or neurology, for not explaining the connection between neurons and 'conscious awareness'.   But then he suggests the soul, as if that does explain things! 

As you say, how does the soul connect with the brain?  Does every neuron have a little soul-let attached to it?   How could we find the soul?   How does God plant it there?  How does God paint the stripes on zebras?

As far as the zebras are concerned, He just does. And that's all you need to know. ;)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9923 on: February 19, 2016, 04:10:46 PM »
How does God paint the stripes on zebras?
That's easy, he uses a stencil and an aerosol.  ::)

The true puzzle is whether zebras start all black or all white?  :-\
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #9924 on: February 19, 2016, 04:25:42 PM »
Without going all interconnected on your ass, I was thinking about the question of negation triggered by Shaker's pantheism post. In different prisms, I think there are echoes in john's post on resurrection,Sriram on the evilosity of nookie, and even AB's on the temptations of JC. Perhaps Alan was one letter out and the temptation is not self deification but self reification.

Well, some forms of religion seem to construct a huge narcissistic melodrama about me, me, me.   I am a great sinner, but God has selected me for salvation - that would be me, me, me, and not you, you, you.  Hee hee hee.   

Some forms of Buddhism suggest that salvation consists of realizing that there was never anything to be saved, or damned, or even born.
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