Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

I keep forgetting what the point of this soul stuff is.  Is it that the soul is not described physically, therefore comes from God? 

Of course there can be no physical description for the soul, just as there can be no physical description for an act of conscious free will.

[Sebastian Toe]

Of course there can be no physical description for the soul,

....is there a non-physical description?

[Alan Burns]

....is there a non-physical description?

My definition of the soul would simply be -
"That which experiences conscious awareness and drives free thoughts and conscious acts of free will"

[Sebastian Toe]

My definition of the soul would simply be -
"That which experiences conscious awareness and drives free thoughts and conscious acts of free will"

In order to do that though it has to interact with the physical body, doesn't it?
How does it do that?

[ekim]

My definition of the soul would simply be -
"That which experiences conscious awareness and drives free thoughts and conscious acts of free will"

Definition of 'mind'...... The element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought. ..... OED

[Alan Burns]

The pink unicorn is supernatural, therefore cannot be described in terms of deterministic events, going back to the Big Bang; therefore, it can only be God who creates the pink unicorn;  100% proof!

The pink unicorn is in fact a product of human imagination which indeed is not driven by deterministic events going back to the Big Bang.  Just another example that creativity exists in our universe, as aptly demonstrated in the human mind.

[Alan Burns]

In order to do that though it has to interact with the physical body, doesn't it?
How does it do that?

My guess is that it can influence the quantum events which occur in our brains without any apparent cause. 

[wigginhall]

Perhaps the Germanic words 'mind' and 'soul' should be replaced by the Greek word 'psyche' which is what is used in the New Testament and what is studied by psychologists.  What's the matter ..... never mind.  What's mind .... no matter.

An interesting point, which reminds me that Freud generally used the German word 'Seele' in his writings, which was usually translated in English as 'mind' or 'psyche'.   Some people have complained that this distorts Freud; there are lots of other examples, for example, Freud used 'das Ich' translated as 'ego', when really it should be the I.

But I think German 'Seele' is rather different from 'soul', but you have to be fluent in German to get this, (I'm not). 

[wigginhall]

The pink unicorn is in fact a product of human imagination which indeed is not driven by deterministic events going back to the Big Bang.  Just another example that creativity exists in our universe, as aptly demonstrated in the human mind.

Nonsense, the pink unicorn exists eternally, preternaturally, transpersonally, transcendentally.     

[Alan Burns]

Definition of 'mind'...... The element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought. ..... OED

So we have awareness, thinking, feeling and consciousness - none of which have a definitive material definition, just a correlation with electro chemical activity in the brain.

[Gordon]

So we have awareness, thinking, feeling and consciousness - none of which have a definitive material definition, just a correlation with electro chemical activity in the brain.

Useful things are brains: they do this stuff thanks to the electro-chemical activity involved, without which none of this stuff happens. You might have noticed that in the absence of said electro-chemical activity none of the stuff you refer to happens at all: this is no coincidence.

[ekim]

So we have awareness, thinking, feeling and consciousness - none of which have a definitive material definition, just a correlation with electro chemical activity in the brain.

The point being though was Torridon said this 'We have body, and we have mind.' so why not use the word 'mind' and not 'soul' then there might be some common ground for the discussion?

[wigginhall]

Useful things are brains: they do this stuff thanks to the electro-chemical activity involved, without which none of this stuff happens. You might have noticed that in the absence of said electro-chemical activity none of the stuff you refer to happens at all: this is no coincidence.

Alan should try drinking several large glasses of whisky.   He would probably still have some imagination and thinking ability left, depending on how large the glasses are, but he might notice some changes going on.   Alan, this is called scientificalistically, the spirit affecting the soul!

[Alan Burns]

Useful things are brains: they do this stuff thanks to the electro-chemical activity involved, without which none of this stuff happens. You might have noticed that in the absence of said electro-chemical activity none of the stuff you refer to happens at all: this is no coincidence.

It is not a coincidence.  There is no doubt that the electro-chemical activity is an essential part of the process, but correlation does not imply causation.

[Gordon]

It is not a coincidence.  There is no doubt that the electro-chemical activity is an essential part of the process, but correlation does not imply causation.

Then do try thinking without utilising the electro-chemical activity that goes on in your brain and let us know how you get on.

[Alan Burns]

Alan should try drinking several large glasses of whisky.   He would probably still have some imagination and thinking ability left, depending on how large the glasses are, but he might notice some changes going on.   Alan, this is called scientificalistically, the spirit affecting the soul!

Yes, Lagavulin would be nice 

[Alan Burns]

Then do try thinking without utilising the electro-chemical activity that goes on in your brain and let us know how you get on.

I have read of some cases where people have had out-of-body experiences when there has been no measurable brain activity.

[Gordon]

I have read of some cases where people have had out-of-body experiences when there has been no measurable brain activity.

How do you know this to be so?

[wigginhall]

A citation for that would be useful, I mean, NDE with no brain activity.   I am pretty sure that there is active research going on into this, so there should be plenty of publications.

[Enki]

There is indeed Wigs.  As far as OBEs are concerned, and especially in the area of NDEs ,  work has been done on prospective tests looking for objective evidence for OBEs under clinical conditions. So far, results have been negative.

[Sebastian Toe]

My guess is that it can influence the quantum events which occur in our brains without any apparent cause.

Influence?
In what way?

[torridon]

The pink unicorn is in fact a product of human imagination which indeed is not driven by deterministic events going back to the Big Bang.  Just another example that creativity exists in our universe, as aptly demonstrated in the human mind.

If the pink unicorn is a figment of imagination, then why not also the soul.  Since there is no evidence for either, all you have is bald assertion that pink unicorns are imaginary whereas souls are real. Not everyone is prepared to accept beliefs just on your say-so, some of us prefer our beliefs to be justified.

[torridon]

I have read of some cases where people have had out-of-body experiences when there has been no measurable brain activity.

I don't know about OBEs but I do recall not so long ago new findings that some level of minimal consciousness can operate at voltage levels below that which we can normally detect through high density electroencephalography, confounding previous accepted wisdom on the subject.  Exploring the neurophysiology of consciousness is very much a work in progress, and has implications for how we treat vegetative, comatose and brain-dead patients

[Alan Burns]

A citation for that would be useful, I mean, NDE with no brain activity.   I am pretty sure that there is active research going on into this, so there should be plenty of publications.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98447&page=1

[torridon]

It is not a coincidence.  There is no doubt that the electro-chemical activity is an essential part of the process, but correlation does not imply causation.

OK, so maybe it is just coincidence.  All the knowledge we have built up regarding neural correlates is all red herring because thoughts are actually enjoyed by a soul which does not show up because it is made of immaterial supernatural stuff. So what exactly is the point in having all that frontal cortex stuff if a soul can think on its own accord by its own magic methods  ?