Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

Ah well in that case, you'll have to explain why god made cockroaches and rats and the West Nile virus too.  You wouldn't want people thinking you had biased views, I'm sure ?

They are what happened when God let the devil loose with the Playdoh.

[Enki]

The quotes you give are not taken from the original study, but appear to be a very selective opinion taken from a biased viewpoint, ignoring the main body of results and conclusions.  The summary I gave was taken from the results as published.

Alan,

I stick by my statement that the Sam Parnia AWARE study OBE prospective test results were negative. Sorry to be so detailed, but it might just be worthwhile for you to read the following:

The outcome measures were (1) awareness/memories during CA and (2) objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.

http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/abstract

To assess the accuracy of claims of visual awareness (VA), 50 to 100 shelves were installed in each hospital near the ceiling of areas where CA resuscitation was likely to occur. Each shelf had an image that was visible only from above the shelf. The study's hypothesis was that the images on the shelves could potentially test the validity of claims of accurate VA, provided enough cases of NDEs occurred where the patient had visual awareness from a vantage point high enough to see the image.

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page-news/1060-aware-study-initial-results-are-published.html

These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page-news/1060-aware-study-initial-results-are-published.html

“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, ... it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice."

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page

All of the above either come from the published paper, from a university sponsoring the AWARE study or from a sympathetic source dedicated to exploring NDEs.


These last extracts come from a more sceptical source:

The multi-center study involved placing an image in a location that was hidden from normal view but could be viewed by a person floating above their body during an NDE. This could be a way to objectively differentiate between the two leading hypotheses. Parnia and others believe that reports of NDEs represent actual awareness during cardiac arrest when the brain is not functioning. This, of course, would be compelling evidence for cognition separate from brain function.

But wait a minute – there is no mention in the abstract of the hidden images. How can that be? I understood this to be the main outcome of the study, the one thing that would set it apart from the merely descriptive studies of the past. What happened?

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/

And direct from the study:

While pre-placement of visual targets in resuscitation areas aimed at testing VA was feasible from a practical viewpoint (there were no reported adverse incidents), the observation that 78% of CA events took place in areas without shelves illustrates the challenge in objectively testing the claims of VA in CA using our proposed methodology.

Are you seriously suggesting either:

1) This prospective testing did not take place in the study, and that all the above are downright lies?

Or

2) It did take place and the success rate was greater than zero? If so, why is there no mention of any results at all? Surely, even one positive result would be strong evidence of something happening which is completely unexplained?

[Alan Burns]

I find your ignorant arrogance and self-importance quite breathtaking. Flowers exist just for you to look at? Wow.

I was highlighting the fact that human perception can appreciate the beauty in God's creation.  I believe God is responsible for both the creation of this beauty and for our ability to appreciate it, and I thank God for it.

[Rhiannon]

I was highlighting the fact that human perception can appreciate the beauty in God's creation.  I believe God is responsible for both the creation of this beauty and for our ability to appreciate it, and I thank God for it.

That wasn't what you said though, was it?

[Alan Burns]

That wasn't what you said though, was it?

Sometimes my posts look fine to me, until someone else reads them. 

[ippy]

Sometimes my posts look fine to me, until someone else reads them. 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, Alan, you really are a lost cause.

ippy

[Shaker]

Sometimes my posts look fine to me, until someone else reads them. 

That's because those others can see and identify all the bald assertions and logical fallacies that you can't see and count as argument, Alan.

[torridon]

I was highlighting the fact that human perception can appreciate the beauty in God's creation.  I believe God is responsible for both the creation of this beauty and for our ability to appreciate it, and I thank God for it.

But then you don't out of fairness equally blame God for the elements of creation that disgust us, sicken us, make us ill or try to kill us. How do you justify such bias ?

[Alan Burns]

But then you don't out of fairness equally blame God for the elements of creation that disgust us, sicken us, make us ill or try to kill us. How do you justify such bias ?

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.
If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things.
I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

[BeRational]

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.
If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things.
I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

Will there be bad and ugly things in heaven?

If not how will we continue to appreciate them?

[SqueakyVoice]

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.
If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things.
I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

By that argument we won't be able to appreciate the joys of heaven unless there is also sadness in heaven.

[Leonard James]

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.

What on earth makes you think that? Beautiful things would still exist even if the majority of things are just mundane. We can do without the ugly.

If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things

Stuff and nonsense! We don't need bad things for that. Most things are just ordinary without being bad, and that wouldn't change even if there were nothing bad. We would still recognise the good from the ordinary.

I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

Just as well, because "God" doesn't exist, any more than heaven does.

[SusanDoris]

And it is such a waste of living time to think about heaven.

[Leonard James]

And it is such a waste of living time to think about heaven.

True! The time could be spent on making things better in this life.

[floo]

There's just the two of us then. 

Maybe, but I am more special than you!

[Leonard James]

Maybe, but I am more special than you!

Ladies first, of course! 

[Shaker]

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.
If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things.
I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

This is sheer perversity on the part of your god, then, isn't it. Any deity worthy of the name would want there to be no bad things (because of omnibenevolence), would know how to fashion a world without bad things (because of omniscience) and would be able to create such a world (omnipotence). That is not the case, so if you're desperate to cling onto a god at all and any cost, as you clearly are, then one of those attributes has to go. You can have two of them, any two in fact, but not all three together because that leads to contradiction and I'm sure you wouldn't want to think that about your god, would you.

Of course, there's a far simpler explanation

[Alan Burns]

This is sheer perversity on the part of your god, then, isn't it. Any deity worthy of the name would want there to be no bad things (because of omnibenevolence), would know how to fashion a world without bad things (because of omniscience) and would be able to create such a world (omnipotence). That is not the case, so if you're desperate to cling onto a god at all and any cost, as you clearly are, then one of those attributes has to go. You can have two of them, any two in fact, but not all three together because that leads to contradiction and I'm sure you wouldn't want to think that about your god, would you.

Of course, there's a far simpler explanation

You indicate thay you seem to know how God should do things.
My faith tells me that God is far wiser than any human being.

[Shaker]

You indicate thay you seem to know how God should do things.

Yes - that's true of the vast majority of people, actually. I think there should be no pain, cruelty and misery in the world; with the traditional attributes of a deity at my disposal I would want, would know how and would be able to bring about this state of affairs. This state of affairs doesn't exist, so your lot has some explaining to do. If you're determined to have a god at any price you're left with ignorance, well-intentioned ineptitude or outright malice.

I should think that most people feel that way, hence Dan Barker's comment about most people being nicer than Jesus and better than God. With the bar set as low as that it's no great feat, frankly.

My faith tells me that God is far wiser than any human being.

This is, as you say, merely a matter of faith and leaves you having to perform the most bizarre conceptual contortions and mental gymnastics trying to explain why this alleged wisdom is so singularly lacking in the world.

[torridon]

If ugly things did not exist, we would not appreciate beauty.
If bad things did not exist,we would not appreciate good things.
I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

You know that is a really feeble line of reasoning.  If you were up before the beak on a rap for smashing up a bus shelter you wouldn't dare propose such a risible defence, that you were doing it so people would appreciate the intact bus shelters. If you were a doctor explaining to a five year old that she is going to die from her leukaemia would your explanation be that God mandated it thus so that people could appreciate the value of life ? In real life you would not stoop to this, so why post up such tortured rationalisation here ?

[Sebastian Toe]

I am not saying that God deliberately manufactures the bad and the ugly, but I believe our life on this earth prepares us to appreciate the joys of heaven.

What preparation for heaven is involved in the entire life of a baby which has died within a few minutes of being born?
What comparisons will it be able to make?

[wigginhall]

It's interesting that AB swiftly says that God doesn't make the bad stuff, as that would go down a very difficult road.   But we are back to the old split - God does the nice stuff, and then the bad stuff is either the devil, or original sin, or just bad luck. 

One thing about AB's simple-minded ideas - they reveal the bankruptcy of conventional theism, with its all powerful God, who uses the ugly stuff to remind us of the nice stuff.  Well, he could get rid of the bad stuff,  couldn't he?

But we need the moral abrasiveness of babies dying of brain cancer, it keeps us on our toes. 

[Khatru]

I was highlighting the fact that human perception can appreciate the beauty in God's creation.  I believe God is responsible for both the creation of this beauty and for our ability to appreciate it, and I thank God for it.

What about cancer, ebola, etc?

Or those parasitic worms that eat your eyes?

Where's the beauty there?

All created by your god.

Yet somehow missed out by whoever penned "All Things Bright and Beautiful"

[Shaker]

What about cancer, ebola, etc?

Or those parasitic worms that eat your eyes?

Where's the beauty there?

All created by your god.

Yet somehow missed out by whoever penned "All Things Bright and Beautiful"

Cecil Frances Alexander ... but not missed by the Monty Python boys:

http://goo.gl/TSDYUo

[Alan Burns]

One thing about AB's simple-minded ideas .....

This reminds me of one of the Gospel aclamations used in our church services:

I thank you, Lord, for revealing the mysteries of the Kingdom to mere children