Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

To get to heaven, for Jesus said, "Unless you become as little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"

Can you remember the joys of being a child?

Alan

I was lucky, apart from my mother dying from leukaemia when she was just 28 years old - but I was lucky compared to many children: in that I had a loving family who provided shelter, food, encouragement, nurture and general support, and I also stayed healthy, avoided natural disasters and serious accidents.

Others were less fortunate than me - so if you were to say your God was responsible for this in my case then why isn't this the minimum standard for all children?   

[Nearly Sane]

Alan

I was lucky, apart from my mother dying from leukaemia when she was just 28 years old - but I was lucky compared to many children: in that I had a loving family who provided shelter, food, encouragement, nurture and general support, and I also stayed healthy, avoided natural disasters and serious accidents.

Others were less fortunate than me - so if you were to say your God was responsible for this in my case then why isn't this the minimum standard for all children?

That's not the thug god's fault, Gordon! That' Adam and Eve (but mainly Eve cos she' a women and it allows the thug god's followers to indulge in their whole women are a bit bleedy and icky schtick) who brought all the pain about. The thug god likes the pretty flowers, it's just all our simple children's fault that create childhood cancer.

[Rhiannon]

That's not the thug god's fault, Gordon! That' Adam and Eve (but mainly Eve cos she' a women and it allows the thug god's followers to indulge in their whole women are a bit bleedy and icky schtick) who brought all the pain about. The thug god likes the pretty flowers, it's just all our simple children's fault that create childhood cancer.

Which doesn't really matter anyway as they're being prepared for life in heaven. If they have accepted Jesus. Or their mum and dad have done the big party with the thing in the church beforehand.

Might be alright anyway though...possibly...

[Gordon]

That's not the thug god's fault, Gordon! That' Adam and Eve (but mainly Eve cos she' a women and it allows the thug god's followers to indulge in their whole women are a bit bleedy and icky schtick) who brought all the pain about. The thug god likes the pretty flowers, it's just all our simple children's fault that create childhood cancer.

Indeed - I think the post of God should be advertised, since the current post-holder has clearly been failing since time began.

Might apply myself since I have several interesting and innovative ideas regarding how I'd run the Universe (and everything therein).

[Enki]

Another candidate here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObZJN9zDtA

[Alan Burns]

The sadness is that so many people seem to be blinded to the goodness and wisdom of God, and instead blame Him for everything that they see to be wrong in this world.

The God I know and love died for me so that I could be saved.  He did it for you too.

[Leonard James]

The sadness is that so many people seem to be blinded to the goodness and wisdom of God, and instead blame Him for everything that they see to be wrong in this world.

No, Alan, you are the blinded one. How can you think we blame something we don't believe exists? Can't you see how silly that statement is? We don't blame anything/body for the wrong, nor worship it for the good, because that is just the natural state of things.

The God I know and love died for me so that I could be saved.  He did it for you too.

No again, my friend, that is something you have allowed yourself to be convinced of. The carrot of eternal life is for the consumption of the credulous, just as is the punishment of hell. Neither one nor the other exist. 

[Nearly Sane]

The sadness is that so many people seem to be blinded to the goodness and wisdom of God, and instead blame Him for everything that they see to be wrong in this world.

The God I know and love died for me so that I could be saved.  He did it for you too.

Alan, no, that isn't what people are saying. They are saying that that's the logic of your position. if your god gets the good stuff it gets the bad stuff. Please stop misrepresenting myself and other atheists in this way. You have a bas habit of doing so.

[Alan Burns]

Alan, no, that isn't what people are saying. They are saying that that's the logic of your position. if your god gets the good stuff it gets the bad stuff. Please stop misrepresenting myself and other atheists in this way. You have a bas habit of doing so.

Yes, I did get it wrong again in my haste to make a comment.  It is the implication that He would somehow be responsible for all the suffering if He did exist which is so sad.  The suffering and pain in this world should not be a barrier to Christian faith.

What God does is to give us the strength and courage to endure whatever pain and suffering we are faced with on this earth.  Many Christians have had to experience dreadful suffering and hardship, but they can witness to how their faith has helped them through it.  The inner joy and peace we get through faith comes from a loving God, and it will endure whatever comes.

[Leonard James]

Many Christians have had to experience dreadful suffering and hardship, but they can witness to how their faith has helped them through it.  The inner joy and peace we get through faith comes from a loving God, and it will endure whatever comes.

Yes, it is easy to see that belief in an afterlife of happiness can help people suffering from pain and hardship. Sadly, they are grasping  a fairy tale to escape the reality of the world as it is. 

[torridon]

The sadness is that so many people seem to be blinded to the goodness and wisdom of God, and instead blame Him for everything that they see to be wrong in this world.

We are just pointing out the inconsistencies and imbalance in your presentation. If people praise God for the good things in life then a fair person will likewise condemn for the bad things; but so often, we don't see that, and so conclude that in part at least, faith can be a manifestation of habitual selection bias.

A creator god would bear ultimate responsibility for all things, its not like he is CEO of a company or captain of a ship, he would be the total sole architect of all things and that includes all the things that bring misery into our lives.

The God I know and love died for me so that I could be saved.  He did it for you too.

Will horses and hamsters get saved also ?

[Gordon]

Yes, I did get it wrong again in my haste to make a comment.  It is the implication that He would somehow be responsible for all the suffering if He did exist which is so sad.

If you think your God is responsible for creating the Universe, and for all events occurring within the Universe, then I can't see it can't be blamed.

The suffering and pain in this world should not be a barrier to Christian faith.

Only if you rationalise the pain and suffering away: if not then it is an insurmountable obstacle to the notion of a 'good' God, which is why you guys make up a story is explain why your God is off the hook (the so-called 'fall').

What God does is to give us the strength and courage to endure whatever pain and suffering we are faced with on this earth.  Many Christians have had to experience dreadful suffering and hardship, but they can witness to how their faith has helped them through it.  The inner joy and peace we get through faith comes from a loving God, and it will endure whatever comes.

Which is one version of convenient rationalisation.

[Alan Burns]

If people praise God for the good things in life then a fair person will likewise condemn for the bad things; but so often, we don't see that, and so conclude that in part at least, faith can be a manifestation of habitual selection bias.

There is a famous Christian author, Merlin Carothers, author of Prison to Praise and numerous other books, who discovered the value of being able to thank God fror everything, good and bad.  His books and ministry have helped many people discover the true power of praise and the way Christian faith enables God's power to bring good out of everything we experience in our lives.

[Sassy]

There's nothing wrong with a bit of childlike awe and pleasure. But what you actually mean is infantilising adults in order to stop them thinking independently and for them to accept nonsense as truth.

WRONG... it is accepting the truth about Jesus as a child would. In sincere belief.
But more importantly you knew that what you wrote Rhiannon was not true since you so often tell us how much you studied and achieved as a believer. Are you saying as a believer you did not think independently or for yourself? That everything you did you did as if an infant? Why make a statement you know perfectly well to be untrue, then?
You see belief is about sincerity. Your life and the troubles which rushed in may have caused you to turn away from Christ and the truth. But it does not mean you should say things you know NOT to be true. Are you sure you can claim what you now believe to right when it is so obvious that you know it cannot be true?

[Sassy]

Lots of children get abused as well.   They are vulnerable to powerful authority figures, hmm, now I wonder who that reminds me of?   Did somebody mention Stockholm syndrome, oh, it must have been me.

Does that somehow relate to the childlike faith Christ refers to?
Christ said:King James Bible
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Don't think that those who harm children will go unpunished.

[Alan Burns]

If you think your God is responsible for creating the Universe, and for all events occurring within the Universe, then I can't see it can't be blamed.

But by creating entities with their own free will - by definition, God is not directly responsible for all events.  Those beings which have the ability to exert their free will have to take the responsibility for their actions.

[Shaker]

But as ever, free will is an assertion, not a fact.

[Alan Burns]

But as ever, free will is an assertion, not a fact.

I concede that you have the free will to state this if you so wish 

[BeRational]

But by creating entities with their own free will - by definition, God is not directly responsible for all events.  Those beings which have the ability to exert their free will have to take the responsibility for their actions.

If god knew ahead of time what you MUST do, then you do not really have free will, as you are just following a script.
God could rewrite the script and you would do something different.
If god is in TOTAL control, then he has TOTAL responsibility.

[Gordon]

But by creating entities with their own free will - by definition, God is not directly responsible for all events.  Those beings which have the ability to exert their free will have to take the responsibility for their actions.

Bingo - so God gets the 'get out of jail free' card for all the bad stuff, but we must praise it for all the good stuff.

Please explain how a child with terminal bone cancer is 'responsible' and your God isn't.

[BeRational]

I concede that you have the free will to state this if you so wish 

Did you god know that Shaker would write that before he did?

[Alan Burns]

Did you god know that Shaker would write that before he did?

Shaker is responsible for his own actions, as are you.

God does see the finished picture of our lives, but He does not paint them Himself.

[BeRational]

Shaker is responsible for his own actions, as are you.

God does see the finished picture of our lives, but He does not paint them Himself.

Can the future be something that god does NOT know?

If he already knows, then it has happened and nothing you can do will change it.

Then you have no free will, you are following a script.

[Alan Burns]

Please explain how a child with terminal bone cancer is 'responsible' and your God isn't.

It is a fact that every person on this earth will endure suffering and death.  I do not profess to know what is behind it all, but I know God can help us through it.

[BeRational]

It is a fact that every person on this earth will endure suffering and death.  I do not profess to know what is behind it all, but I know God can help us through it.

Could it also make it so that there was no suffering?