Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

People often quote the physical suffering of other people as a reason to believe that God does not exist.  But you will find that many of those who endure physical suffering are very close to God.

What about those who are not? Because if you have a sample of those enduring physical suffering who believe in a god and a sample of those who endure physical suffering who do not ... well, so what? This is hardly stop the presses material, is it?

The spiritual starvation of many in this affluent age will ultimately have far worse consequences than those who endure physical hardships.  And spiritual starvation is much more difficult to remedy.

Imaginary conditions have imaginary remedies.

[Rhiannon]

People often quote the physical suffering of other people as a reason to believe that God does not exist.  But you will find that many of those who endure physical suffering are very close to God.  The spiritual starvation of many in this affluent age will ultimately have far worse consequences than those who endure physical hardships.  And spiritual starvation is much more difficult to remedy.

Bollocks.

Sorry, but sometimes that's the only appropriate response.

[Alan Burns]

Malcolm Muggeridge was a pretentious buffoon in the C.S. Lewis mould.

Try reading Christopher Hitchens 'The Missionary Position', where he deals with this silly claim made by Muggeridge.   

As you might guess, I have a much higher regard for Malcolm Muggeridge and CS Lewis than I have for the likes of Christopher Hitchens.

As I mentioned on another thread, I once corresponded with Malcolm Muggeridge telling him that I felt God was calling him to join the Catholic faith.  He sent me a polite reply, thanking me for my concern.  A year later he became a Roman Catholic, and I discovered that I was one of many who were encouraging him to convert.

[Shaker]

As you might guess, I have a much higher regard for Malcolm Muggeridge and CS Lewis than I have for the likes of Christopher Hitchens.

That's because the first two were credulous gimps who swallowed every myth and fable going by the yard (Saint Mug as he was widely known was aptly named for more than a mere play on his surname), and thus obviously more attuned to your preferred method of conducting yourself in the world, and the latter was a sceptic, a critical thinker and a sworn enemy of credulity and irrationalism to the bone.

But it surprises nobody here that you would rather shoot the messenger than permit yourself to read any alternative viewpoint based upon rational principles that does away with your mythologising.

[Gordon]

As you might guess, I have a much higher regard for Malcolm Muggeridge and CS Lewis than I have for the likes of Christopher Hitchens.

Then you are a poor judge of intellectual worth.

[Alan Burns]

And thus even in our own time are so-called miracles whipped up by the credulous.

It could have been the new film, it could have been divine light, it could have been a combination of the two.  However it happened, I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

I find there are many occasions in my life when prayers appear to have been answered by incredible coincidences.  You will no doubt try to explain it all away as confirmation bias, but these things often happen when I pray.

[Shaker]

It could have been the new film

It was.

it could have been divine light, it could have been a combination of the two.

Provide your methodology for evaluating this claim.

However it happened, I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

Credulity in action. Always the myth and the miracle, never the word of an expert in some form of technological advancement.

I find there are many occasions in my life when prayers appear to have been answered by incredible coincidences. You will no doubt try to explain it all away as confirmation bias, but these things often happen when I pray.

How many times do you take note of the prayers you pray which do not get answered, or are not answered in the way that you would prefer?

[torridon]

You can't put all the bad things down to 'free-will'. Ebola, Zika virus,  Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, yellow fever, tuberculosis, malaria, motor neurone disease, nodding syndrome, the Lord God made them all, not to mention a shed load of others.

People often quote the physical suffering of other people as a reason to believe that God does not exist.  But you will find that many of those who endure physical suffering are very close to God.  The spiritual starvation of many in this affluent age will ultimately have far worse consequences than those who endure physical hardships.  And spiritual starvation is much more difficult to remedy.

That's largely irrelevant to the point you were supposedly addressing.  Or if you are implying that God causes suffering as a means to draw people closer to him I'm afraid that is going to bust my brand new barminess meter.  Try, for once, addressing an issue with straightforward unevasive reasoning, you might find you like it.

[Alan Burns]

Then you are a poor judge of intellectual worth.

Hitchens had great intellectual gifts.  It is a great sadness that he chose to use them in the way he did.

[Gordon]

It could have been the new film

Which is what the expert cameraman thinks.

it could have been divine light

Are you an expert cameraman?

... it could have been a combination of the two.  However it happened, I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

Head in the sand assertion.

I find there are many occasions in my life when prayers appear to have been answered by incredible coincidences.  You will no doubt try to explain it all away as confirmation bias, but these things often happen when I pray.

Then please pray for the elimination of bone cancer in children - how long do we wait for evidence you've succeeded?

[Shaker]

Hitchens had great intellectual gifts.  It is a great sadness that he chose to use them in the way he did.

Only to you, because he didn't like what you like, which is all it comes down to.

Yet again, so many things seem to you to be in your stock phrase "a great sadness" that it's a wonder you can bear to live in the world.

[Enki]

Alan,

This is taken from post 10572:

Malcolm Muggeridge, the English journalist and convert to Catholicism, was filming Mother Teresa for a documentary. One day, the electricity was out, and he bemoaned the fact that he had to film her without lights, convinced that the day would be lost. But when the film was developed, he noticed that the scenes were beautifully lit, and it appeared as though the light was coming from her.

I'm sure you won't mind me using your own words as used in a recent post to me, here, as they seem highly appropriate:

The account you give here is not from the original cameraman who was using a new type of kodak film, 

but appear to be a very selective opinion taken from a biased viewpoint

 

[ekim]

It could have been the new film, it could have been divine light, it could have been a combination of the two.  However it happened, I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

I find there are many occasions in my life when prayers appear to have been answered by incredible coincidences.  You will no doubt try to explain it all away as confirmation bias, but these things often happen when I pray.

I note that you have said 'appears to have been answered' which allows for doubt.  The incident in question appears to be trivial.  On the other hand for many years at Christmas a Pope has prayed for peace in the Middle East and the situation has got worse and worse each year.  I suppose that God's answer could be to empty the Middle East of its people and force them into Europe.... be careful what you pray for.

[Alan Burns]

That's largely irrelevant to the point you were supposedly addressing.  Or if you are implying that God causes suffering as a means to draw people closer to him I'm afraid that is going to bust my brand new barminess meter.  Try, for once, addressing an issue with straightforward unevasive reasoning, you might find you like it.

As I have said before, I do not believe God causes suffering, but I do believe He can help us to deal with it and ultimately bring good out of it.

On your second point, my faith would prevent me from using any reasoning which did not include God, because I know Him, I trust Him and I love Him.

[floo]

Bollocks.

Sorry, but sometimes that's the only appropriate response.

I agree!

[Shaker]

my faith would prevent me from using any reasoning which did not include God, because I know Him, I trust Him and I love Him.

Doesn't that just say it all.

[BeRational]

As I have said before, I do not believe God causes suffering, but I do believe He can help us to deal with it and ultimately bring good out of it.

On your second point, my faith would prevent me from using any reasoning which did not include God, because I know Him, I trust Him and I love Him.

Then your 'reasoning' is poor to the point of worthless.

[Gordon]

On your second point, my faith would prevent me from using any reasoning which did not include God, because I know Him, I trust Him and I love Him.

Then you have, quite simply, abandoned all reason.

[Shaker]

John Locke was bang on the money here:

I find every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of it gladly: and where it fails them, they cry out, It is matter of faith, and above reason.

[Maeght]

It could have been the new film, it could have been divine light, it could have been a combination of the two.  However it happened, I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

I find there are many occasions in my life when prayers appear to have been answered by incredible coincidences.  You will no doubt try to explain it all away as confirmation bias, but these things often happen when I pray.

Are your prayers always answered Alan?

[Shaker]

Are your prayers always answered Alan?

Well he said "many occasions" and "often," so the answer to that one would have to be no, I assume.

I did ask if he keeps track of those prayers which are not answered or are answered in a way which he didn't want/intend as there are further questions after that, but so far he hasn't answered.

[torridon]

As I have said before, I do not believe God causes suffering, but I do believe He can help us to deal with it and ultimately bring good out of it.

On your second point, my faith would prevent me from using any reasoning which did not include God, because I know Him, I trust Him and I love Him.

Does that mean you are not essentially prepared to engage with other people in which case why are you on a discussion forum ?  This is not a place for proselytising, at best it could be a place where people can exchange ideas and criticisms and grow in the process but if you are saying that your a-priori emotional commitment to your ideas prevents any self-examination then in a sense your presence on this board is a sham and you do a disservice to fellow posters who would try to reason with you.

[Sebastian Toe]

I believe God saw to it that the film turned out OK despite the failure of the lighting.

What 'failure of the lighting'?

[SusanDoris]

Does that mean you are not essentially prepared to engage with other people in which case why are you on a discussion forum ?  This is not a place for proselytising, at best it could be a place where people can exchange ideas and criticisms and grow in the process but if you are saying that your a-priori emotional commitment to your ideas prevents any self-examination then in a sense your presence on this board is a sham and you do a disservice to fellow posters who would try to reason with you.

Well said. 

[Maeght]

Well he said "many occasions" and "often," so the answer to that one would have to be no, I assume.

I did ask if he keeps track of those prayers which are not answered or are answered in a way which he didn't want/intend as there are further questions after that, but so far he hasn't answered.

Indeed - that was the route I was going down, (re)starting that conversation. I expect the answer is 'God moves in mysterious ways'.