Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3882384 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10275 on: February 27, 2016, 05:56:21 AM »
But I am not trying to win an argument.  I am trying to spread the Good News.

Then you need to find a forum of younger people, because most of the contributors to this thread are too old and experienced to swallow your 'good news'. 

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I would hope that even though they are rejected now, some of the messages I send might provide food for thought in later life.

I'm afraid the messages you send are achieving quite the opposite, Alan ... they are strengthening the conviction of the atheists here.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10276 on: February 27, 2016, 10:51:15 AM »
Then you need to find a forum of younger people, because most of the contributors to this thread are too old and experienced to swallow your 'good news'. 

I have witnessed many adult conversions.  You are never too old to discover God's love, Len.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10277 on: February 27, 2016, 10:54:36 AM »
I have witnessed many adult conversions.
And I bet the evidence for these is in hiding along with the evidence of the so-called "miracle" to which you once alluded.
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You are never too old to discover God's love, Len.
People suffer mental aberrations of one sort or another all the time.

That's not nearly as common, however, as the perennial error of mistaking wish for fact and desire for reality.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10278 on: February 27, 2016, 11:04:03 AM »
And yet you're one of the most dishonest posters that I've seen on this forum.   
I can assure you that my conscience is clear, and I take comfort in the fact that Jesus was also falsely accused.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10279 on: February 27, 2016, 11:26:23 AM »
The love of god is a HUGE LIE! >:(
On the part of those who believe in such things it isn't a lie, in that it's a conscious and deliberate falsehood intended to deceive; it's just a belief of theirs, driven by emotion rather than intellect. Unfortunately they seem unable to see just how feeble are their attempts at rationalising how selective the love of this alleged being is and how it is indistinguishable from the operation of sheer random chance. When scenario 1, a god who operates to look just like the blind and indiscriminate workings of random chance, and scenario 2, blind and indiscriminate random chance with no god, look exactly the same, the god hypothesis is (a) useless because unfalsifiable, (b) superfluous and (c) as per Occam's Razor, immediately dispensable.

I keep making this same point with regard to petitionary prayer, for example. Nobody from the other team will take it up though because the logic is watertight and the conclusion irrefutable.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:43:47 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10280 on: February 27, 2016, 11:28:20 AM »
I can assure you that my conscience is clear
Not an inherently good sign - sociopaths can (and do) make precisely the same claim.

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and I take comfort in the fact that Jesus was also falsely accused.
Nothing like comparing yourself to Jesus to strike just the right note of Christian humility.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10281 on: February 27, 2016, 11:41:01 AM »
On the part of those who believe in such things it isn't a lie, in that it's a conscious and deliberate falsehood intended to deceive; it's just a belief of theirs, driven by emotion rather than intellect. Unfortunately they seem unable to see just how feeble are their attempts at rationalising how selective the love of this alleged being is and how it is indistinguishable from the operation of sheer random chance. When a god who operates to look like the workings of random chance, and random chance with no god, look exactly the same, the god hypothesis is (a) useless because unfalsifiable, (b) superfluous and (c) as per Occam's Razor, immediately dispensable.

I keep making this same point with regard to petitionary prayer, for example.

The Bible gives the lie to god being loving!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10282 on: February 27, 2016, 11:42:52 AM »
The Bible gives the lie to god being loving!
Yes, but more to the point, life, everyday reality does that.

Or rather, to be more precise, it opens up a couple of other possibilities - God is loving but impotent; God is loving but ignorant - neither of which are going to appeal to the theist very much. In any case, a traditional omnimax god and the world we live in cannot be squared as-is, hence so much wasted time, thought and ink trying to do the necessary contortions to make the square peg fit in a round hole.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:49:47 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10283 on: February 27, 2016, 11:55:57 AM »
I can assure you that my conscience is clear, and I take comfort in the fact that Jesus was also falsely accused.

So you are likening people disagreeing with you on a rather small Internet forum to the Son of God being falsely accused and crucified?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:58:56 AM by Rhiannon »

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10284 on: February 27, 2016, 12:05:26 PM »
And I bet the evidence for these is in hiding along with the evidence of the so-called "miracle" to which you once alluded.People suffer mental aberrations of one sort or another all the time.

That's not nearly as common, however, as the perennial error of mistaking wish for fact and desire for reality.

I've read a good many conversion stories in Alpha News. Of course they are recent events generally and it's impossible to know how long term the conversion is. But a defining feature is that each story involves extremes of suffering and difficulty - addiction, crime, abuse. It's no surprise that Alpha is big in prisons. It also is the closest thing the CofE has these days to a cult - charismatic guru figure, exclusive teaching materials, exclusion of the disapproving etc.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10285 on: February 27, 2016, 12:10:34 PM »
I've read a good many conversion stories in Alpha News. Of course they are recent events generally and it's impossible to know how long term the conversion is. But a defining feature is that each story involves extremes of suffering and difficulty - addiction, crime, abuse. It's no surprise that Alpha is big in prisons. It also is the closest thing the CofE has these days to a cult - charismatic guru figure, exclusive teaching materials, exclusion of the disapproving etc.
You've just reminded me to post a link to Stephen Butterfield's blog, a long and detailed recounting of his experience of being a respectful, polite but tenacious atheist asking pointed questions at Alpha back in 2008. The blog posts themselves (always long, often very long) plus comments make this a whole lot of reading, but I enjoyed it hugely - masses of detail, lots of humour, marvelously well written, top stuff:

https://goo.gl/oe7kYa

Your point about difficulties in life, suffering generally of all kinds, leading to conversion was raised by a member of the course who said to Mr Butterfield: "Let's hope that nothing terrible in your life happens to you to bring you to an awareness of the reality of God, Stephen." (Something we've all heard before, I'm sure). It's not only a thinly-veiled threat (as noted by Butterfield himself), it seems to me a naked demonstration of what Nietzsche called ressentiment (resentment - Nietzsche always used the French term). It's part of what he called Sklaven-moral or slave morality, the bitter, galling resentment by the weaker of the stronger. (This was Nietzsche's theory of the formation of the human moral sense outlined in On the Genealogy of Morality; to go into detail here would take me too far astray). It's a "You need to suffer to become not only different but better than you are now" type of argument which Nietzsche despised and Christianity with it because he saw Christianity as responsible for inculcating the belief that to be weakened and humbled is good and that suffering bestows wisdom - instead of just being useless, pointless suffering. It's making a virtue of necessity, in other words - can't avoid suffering? OK; impose a higher meaning on it.

It really does strike me as the most extraordinarily feeble argument - as though the likelihood of the existence of a god is somehow increased the day after a terrible tragedy than the day before it. What is increased is emotional lability; I can't help but think that the theists who advance this "argument" are tacitly, unwittingly agreeing with atheists that god-beliefs spring from emotional needs, drives and desires, not from clear thinking - and I hope most of us can see what the problems are with that. I'm fairly sure that this is not what they intend to convey, but they do nonetheless.

The existence of gods is no more likely the morning after your child has been diagnosed with lymphoblastic leukaemia than the day before. What has changed is the emotional state of the parent - that makes all the difference to the parent and absolutely none whatever to reality. Everybody experiences loss at some point in their life - myself included - and some people suffer the most wrenching tragedies. Some of these may turn to God; others lose the belief in God that they had before (somebody like Darwin for example); others still (me) start as atheists and remain atheists because that is the only way of looking at the world that makes any sense, and that cannot be altered by the shifting sands of personal feeling. To me the picture of the world presented by theism is patently, manifestly, crashingly false (in fact, absurd) on its face and no horror, no matter how awful, can change that. In some people it can change their emotional need not just for comfort but a very personal comforter on call 24/7, but the explanations for these differences are to be found in human psychology, in what we know about different personality types, and not in an assumption of the truth of theism.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 01:37:18 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10286 on: February 27, 2016, 01:49:23 PM »
Go Shakes, a cracking post, that.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10287 on: February 27, 2016, 01:50:01 PM »
Go Shakes, a cracking post, that.

Agreed.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10288 on: February 27, 2016, 02:00:36 PM »
Thanks  :-[
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10289 on: February 27, 2016, 02:39:53 PM »
I have witnessed many adult conversions.  You are never too old to discover God's love, Len.

In truth, age has nothing to do with it. Since relatively young I have been aware of the total lack of evidence for "God" or his love. The evidence points strongly to the fact that either he doesn't exist, or is totally indifferent to human suffering.

I am also aware that many people (like you) find solace in the belief in him in times of stress, because it gives them the false hope that something better awaits them after death. The evidence for such a thing is totally non-existent, and boils down to nothing more than the personal feelings and assertions of people since the belief was first invented.

The same applies to all other "gods".

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10290 on: February 27, 2016, 02:45:38 PM »
You've just reminded me to post a link to Stephen Butterfield's blog, a long and detailed recounting of his experience of being a respectful, polite but tenacious atheist asking pointed questions at Alpha back in 2008. The blog posts themselves (always long, often very long) plus comments make this a whole lot of reading, but I enjoyed it hugely - masses of detail, lots of humour, marvelously well written, top stuff:

https://goo.gl/oe7kYa



Yes, I read that blog from start to finish a few years ago. Enjoyed it immensely. It was because of that blog that I decided to take part in two Alpha courses myself(one with my wife), because I didn't quite believe some of the rather surprising and, to me, idiotic and parochial things the Christians were saying. I/we sat through the mind numbing unctiousness of Nicky Gumbel in the TV parts of the course, and we both came away appalled at the complacent self centredness and downright ignorance of many of the views expressed.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10291 on: February 27, 2016, 02:51:45 PM »
"....and boils down to nothing more than personal feelings and assertions...."
Yes, that describes Shaker's godless atheism and Leo's. However Shaker uses PooPourri with his.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 03:10:54 PM by OH MY WORLD! »

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10292 on: February 27, 2016, 03:13:25 PM »
"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing factory."   Edwin Conklin

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10293 on: February 27, 2016, 03:24:08 PM »
You seem to be on a different thread to the rest of us.

And of course when I say thread I actually mean planet.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10294 on: February 27, 2016, 03:32:16 PM »
As is in your alien planet? The one that Cher, Dick Dawkins, and Honey Boo Boo comes from? Na, but do keep your tinfoil hat, Shaker.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10295 on: February 27, 2016, 03:33:27 PM »
As is in your alien planet? The one that Cher, Dick Dawkins, and Honey Boo Boo comes from? Na, but do keep your tinfoil hat, Shaker.
I'll wait for this meaningless babble to come out in English.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10296 on: February 27, 2016, 03:45:21 PM »
You are spraying your PooPourri thick today old man.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10297 on: February 27, 2016, 04:02:22 PM »
"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing factory."   Edwin Conklin

So have you checked his workings?

Even if this is just a statement to convey his personal opinion, I'm not sure he is up to speed with the latest theories on abiogenesis having been dead these last 64 years.

 

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10298 on: February 27, 2016, 04:13:29 PM »
Well Gordon, I'm sure there were many unprovable theories in his day as well.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #10299 on: February 27, 2016, 04:31:33 PM »
Well Gordon, I'm sure there were many unprovable theories in his day as well.

So why quote him?