Searching for GOD...

[jjohnjil]

The problem is that we can only imagine God in the terms of our own limited perception, hence the concept of "who created God?".  When Moses queried who God was, the response was "I am who am".  I interpret this as meaning "God is that which exists".  Our human imagination can't comprehend anything coming into existence out of nothing.  But neither can it comprehend how anything could have always existed.  The words infinity and eternity have meaning, but we do not have the capacity with our physical senses to imagine the reality of these concepts.  God has made Himself known to us in the most tangible way by becoming one of us in the human form of Jesus.  The true reality of God is totally beyond our comprehension, but most humans will understand that something must have brought this universe into existence.

But this means you are quite happy to accept that some things can 'just be', which can just as logically be the universe or indeed the multiverse.

It seems to me that a vast cloud of subatomic particles coming into existence from absolutely nowhere is far more likely than something as complex as an all-powerful, all-knowing god coming into existence by some magical process.

Why is it you seem to find one 'something' completely incredulous but the far greater mystery is acceptable without further thought?

[wigginhall]

Ah, but gravity means physics and stuff, and that's hard.

Evolution is all about monkeys. Much easier.

Seriously, it's peculiar state of affairs when the mechanisms of evolution are known and understood down to the molecular level yet evolution attracts all the bone-headed flak that it does, whereas gravity, whose effects we can see all the time but is largely a mystery still (is it mediated by the graviton? If so, where is it?) gets a free pass.

To me the reason for the difference in approach is obvious. Gravity doesn't go to the very core of what a human being is and what it means to be a human being. Evolution does. Gravity has nothing to say about where we as a species of animal came from. Evolution does. Crucially for a certain mindset, gravity doesn't have the power to poke, prod, disturb or even - most dangerous of all - overturn cherished ideas of human exceptionalism, the specialness and distinctiveness of humans as the special creation of God. Evolution does and always has, and that's the root of the opposition to it. Creationists don't care about and don't go after general relativity or quantum theory or anything that doesn't impinge directly on their self-image. It's not important - it's all abstract, airy-fairy sciencey stuff. It's only when you start passing comment on egotistical matters that some people start taking it very personally indeed.

Very good, I think you're right.  Freud had a saying, that Copernicus dethroned the earth from the centre of the heavens; Darwin dethroned the human from the pinnacle of the animal kingdom; and (being a modest sort of chap), Freud dethroned the ego from the centre of power in the psyche.

It's very likely that these have been massive shocks to human egotism, as you say.   They have also led to secularism and skepticism, but also, a counter-blast from theism, which still wants to say, ah, but we are special.   But the counter-blast has been rather puny and feeble.

[Alan Burns]

God sings.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F8TRoMSG-5I

I prefer the real one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GmUj0cucfc

[Leonard James]

It is the assumption that there will be sufficient beneficial random mutations to drive the process.

When millions of mutations are going on all over the world, some beneficial, some neutral and some detrimental, it follows that the beneficial ones will be reproduced because they favour survival and reproduction, neutral ones will have a fifty-fifty chance of being passed on, and the detrimental ones that prevent reproduction will become eliminated because their owners will die without reproducing. Looked at in this light it is obvious that there will be a constantly expanding beneficial gene field,

There is no definitive way of proving that every beneficial mutation was caused by a chance event,

All mutations are chance events, they are simply copying errors.

...so it all boils down to personal belief as to whether the mutations which brought you into existence were the product of random events or divine guidance.

Since we have no evidence of anything called "divine guidance" except the wishful literature of ancient people, the 'personal belief' must favour evolution unless the person concerned finds it too hard to face, and has been fooled by such literature.

[torridon]

But this means you are quite happy to accept that some things can 'just be', which can just as logically be the universe or indeed the multiverse.

It seems to me that a vast cloud of subatomic particles coming into existence from absolutely nowhere is far more likely than something as complex as an all-powerful, all-knowing god coming into existence by some magical process.

'Likely' being the key word. We know that matter is created and uncreated all the time in the quantum field underpinned by probabilities so in asking why the universe exists, we should probably extrapolate that it comes down to probabilities, it being the case that the probability of absolutely nothing existing is zero.  The same methodology would not apply to a being that is neither energy nor matter though. Supernatural beings cannot exist by definition.

[ippy]

Corresponding with A B is very much like telling someone that he has suffered some sort of traumatic event and ended up with something like Gulf war syndrome, "come on now pull yourself together man" and we're just about as likely to get a satisfactory resolution.

The man's gone he's a no hoper, a waste of time. (It wouldn't surprise me if he thought god told me to write this or maybe the devil).

ippy

[Shaker]

The problem is that we can only imagine God in the terms of our own limited perception, hence the concept of "who created God?".  When Moses queried who God was, the response was "I am who am".  I interpret this as meaning "God is that which exists".

So you're a pantheist, then.

most humans will understand that something must have brought this universe into existence.

Argumentum ad populum/numerum.

1. That's an assertion - is it even true that 'most' people think that way?

2. Even if they did, so what? Raw numbers in the field of belief or opinion demonstrates absolutely nothing whatever, only that a lot of people think a certain thing. They can be wrong. If fifty million people say a foolish thing, as Anatole France observed, it's still a foolish thing.

3. Was the universe brought into existence?

4. If so, your theism demands that you must see it as a who and not a what - a personalistic entity with consciousess and will and so forth. What if it wasn't a who at all but simply a what - a process?

[jjohnjil]

'Likely' being the key word. We know that matter is created and uncreated all the time in the quantum field underpinned by probabilities so in asking why the universe exists, we should probably extrapolate that it comes down to probabilities, it being the case that the probability of absolutely nothing existing is zero.  The same methodology would not apply to a being that is neither energy nor matter though. Supernatural beings cannot exist by definition.

You're right, of course, but what puzzles me is how someone can agonise over how mutations can happen with no obvious cause ... but never wonder how something far more complex than anything we have ever know - God - can happen at all! 

[Alan Burns]

It's very likely that these have been massive shocks to human egotism, as you say.   They have also led to secularism and scepticism, but also, a counter-blast from theism, which still wants to say, ah, but we are special.   But the counter-blast has been rather puny and feeble.

But what makes the human race special is that we have been given conscious awareness of our "specialness"

[Shaker]

But what makes the human race special is that we have been given conscious awareness of our "specialness"

Where to start with that farrago of wrongitude?

[Gordon]

But what makes the human race special is that we have been given conscious awareness of our "specialness"

Grandiose piffle.

[Alan Burns]

Supernatural beings cannot exist by definition.

definition of supernatural from OED:
attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature
By this definition, you cannot assume that supernatural entities do not exist.  It is merely something which lies beyond human understanding, for example your own conscious awareness.

[Alan Burns]

Where to start with that farrago of wrongitude?

So is there any other entity in the known universe which is capable of being aware that they are special?

[Shaker]

So is there any other known entity in the known universe which is capable of being aware that they are special?

No idea - we're not yet aware of any other entities in the universe full stop other than the still unknown number on one minuscule planet. But have you just noticed how you've made a boo-boo by simply assuming specialness as part of your point, no questions asked?

[Alan Burns]

If there is intelligent life on other planets maybe they feel special too!

Any intelligent life with conscious awareness would be entitled to feel special, as God intended.

[Shaker]

Any intelligent life with conscious awareness would be entitled to feel special, as God intended.

And the Assertatron rumbles on ...

[BeRational]

Any intelligent life with conscious awareness would be entitled to feel special, as God intended.

So this would also apply to chimps and other primates?

[Leonard James]

definition of supernatural from OED:
attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature
By this definition, you cannot assume that supernatural entities do not exist.  It is merely something which lies beyond human understanding, for example your own conscious awareness.

Your conscious awareness may be beyond your understanding, Alan, but it certainly isn't beyond mine!

[torridon]

But what makes the human race special is that we have been given conscious awareness of our "specialness"

Baseless Assertion Alert.

There is no evidence that humans have been 'given' anything.

That is just your old friend cognitive bias talking, agent detection. Added to which, feelings of 'specialness' or 'superiority' are manifestations of narcissism. 

Neither of the above two are to be proud of. 

[Khatru]

The problem is that we can only imagine God in the terms of our own limited perception, hence the concept of "who created God?".  When Moses queried who God was, the response was "I am who am".  I interpret this as meaning "God is that which exists".  Our human imagination can't comprehend anything coming into existence out of nothing.  But neither can it comprehend how anything could have always existed.  The words infinity and eternity have meaning, but we do not have the capacity with our physical senses to imagine the reality of these concepts.  God has made Himself known to us in the most tangible way by becoming one of us in the human form of Jesus.  The true reality of God is totally beyond our comprehension, but most humans will understand that something must have brought this universe into existence.

No doubt your deity of choice sits there and wonders where he comes from.

[floo]

No doubt your deity of choice sits there and wonders where he comes from.

Probably because nothing comes from nothing. However Christians who argue that say god was always there, talk about inconsistent!

[Khatru]

definition of supernatural from OED:
attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature
By this definition, you cannot assume that supernatural entities do not exist.  It is merely something which lies beyond human understanding, for example your own conscious awareness.

Which means you can't assume that some greater supernatural being created your god. 

How many other realms can you invoke, Alan?  Perhaps He who created your god dwells in a realm outside of the supernatural? 

Maybe He's in the extranatural realm?  Or perhaps you can try looking in the infranatural and if He's not there, you can always check out the juxtanatural.

No luck?  Don't worry there are other realms in which you can seek Him out:

The quasinatural, holonatural, micronatural and hypernatural realms all warrant inspection.

[ippy]

But what makes the human race special is that we have been given conscious awareness of our "specialness"

We haven't been given anything all we have has evolved Alan.

ippy

[ippy]

No doubt your deity of choice sits there and wonders where he comes from.

I really like this one Kh, it's a good one.

ippy

[ippy]

Is Alan's Sparkie's alter ego?

ippy