Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Thank you most glorious and munificent leader - would hate to lose this one.

[SusanDoris]

Indeed.

If Alan had been born in Saudi Arabia he would have been a Muslim, firm in his belief that Mohammed is the one true prophet of Allah.

Of course, Alan's deep religious/chronological snobbery will prevent him from admitting that.

I'm afraid you are right.

Alan Burns

Please admit that you would in fact be a Moslem believer if you were born to Moslem parents in a Moslem country and brought up to believe what your parents believed.

[SusanDoris]

Thank you most glorious and munificent leader - would hate to lose this one.

Ditto!

[Gordon]

Thank you most glorious and munificent leader - would hate to lose this one.

Actually it was Rhi's idea, and a good one to boot!

[Alan Burns]

The brain itself is the single entity of conscious awareness, receiving stimuli and reacting accordingly. What more do you want? A label on a particular group of cells saying 'general headquarters'?

You have correctly identified the dilemma Len.
The brain is just a term for a collection of atoms and molecules which react with stimuli from parts of the human body.  Where are you in all these molecular particles?  You are certainly aware of the state of these particles, and their behaviour, but are you actually in these particles?

[Shaker]

Actually it was Rhi's idea, and a good one to boot!

Well kudos to the both of yers, then.

[Shaker]

You have correctly identified the dilemma Len.
The brain is just a term for a collection of atoms and molecules which react with stimuli from parts of the human body.  Where are you in all these molecular particles?  You are certainly aware of the state of these particles, and their behaviour, but are you actually in these particles?

Where else are you expecting him to be? In the toilet?

[torridon]

You have correctly identified the dilemma Len.
The brain is just a term for a collection of atoms and molecules which react with stimuli from parts of the human body.  Where are you in all these molecular particles?  You are certainly aware of the state of these particles, and their behaviour, but are you actually in these particles?

Short answer : we emerge* from them.

* Longer answers available on demand.

[Alan Burns]

I'm afraid you are right.

Alan Burns

Please admit that you would in fact be a Moslem believer if you were born to Moslem parents in a Moslem country and brought up to believe what your parents believed.

As I said in #10996, I would hope that I would be able to discover the truth.  It is just speculation to assume that I would be brainwashed into accepting Islam.  Contrary to some poster's opinions I do have an enquiring mind.

[Shaker]

As I said in #10996, I would hope that I would be able to discover the truth.

Which is what Muslims think about Islam, isn't it?

[torridon]

As I said in #10996, I would hope that I would be able to discover the truth.  It is just speculation to assume that I would be brainwashed into accepting Islam.  Contrary to some poster's opinions I do have an enquiring mind.

My money would be on you being a full on muslim now.  The vast majority of people remain within the hermeneutic horizons of the beliefs of their culture and upbringing and this is true of you currently it would seem.

[wigginhall]

Science has discovered much about how the brain works, but it does not define the difference between reaction and perception.

Well, I am still waiting for some citations to back this up.

I felt so annoyed by this post, that I am replying to it again.   Have you heard of prosopagnosia?  It's the condition where people don't recognize faces, although they do recognize objects.   Originally identified in some types of brain damage, it has also been seen in some people without obvious brain damage.

I would say that research into this is about perception, since the people involved do recognize objects.  It's one of the crucial developmental milestones in very young children.

And, again, there is plenty of research into it, which you denigrate with comments about 'mere labelling'.  Quite disgusting really, to say that.   This research may well help someone that you know later in life.

Ignorance about science is one thing, but hostility to it is absurd and casts a pall over your faith. 
   

[Maeght]

It is just speculation to assume that I would be brainwashed into accepting Islam.  Contrary to some poster's opinions I do have an enquiring mind.

Do you think Muslims don't have enquiring minds and have been brainwashed?

[wigginhall]

You have correctly identified the dilemma Len.
The brain is just a term for a collection of atoms and molecules which react with stimuli from parts of the human body.  Where are you in all these molecular particles?  You are certainly aware of the state of these particles, and their behaviour, but are you actually in these particles?

That is also incorrect.  The brain is not just a collection of atoms and molecules.  It contains a system of 'modules', which have specialized functions.  For example, we know that some kinds of brain damage affect speech and language, and some don't.  As I said earlier, there is active research into self identity, and how this is organized in the brain, and obviously, brain damage gives us many clues about this.  For example, some people don't know who they are, because of damage.

However, there is a controversy over the degree to which interactive functioning is important, since the brain can be seen as a holistic organ, and not as specialized as used to be thought.   

You might as well say that your knee consists of atoms and molecules - this is correct, but it also contains different moving parts, such as the tibia, the femur, and the knee cap.

[SusanDoris]

Alan Burns

It is ridiculous to think that as a baby, as a child, you would be in any kind of position to look for, say, Christianity in the situation as suggested. Why will you not agree with this? You must agree with this unless you can come up with specific evidence to the contrary.

As other posters know, I do not use bold often, but have chosen to do so for these last few posts.

[wigginhall]

AB asks, 'are you in those particles?', meaning atoms and molecules in the brain;  this issue has been discussed at length in psychology, neurology and philosophy.    For example, when you see red, does this mean that neurons have little flags on them with 'RED' displayed?  Probably not.  Or when you taste chocolate, does each neuron taste of chocolate?  Or if you could lick your brain, would it taste likewise?

Well, no.  Obviously, there is a gap in our knowledge as to how neurological processes end up as perceptions and sensations and ideas.   

Into these gaps, AB inserts his soul and his God.   But how does the soul know how to see red or taste chocolate?   I would be very interested to see some articles which explain this.     

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

As I said in #10996, I would hope that I would be able to discover the truth.  It is just speculation to assume that I would be brainwashed into accepting Islam.  Contrary to some poster's opinions I do have an enquiring mind.

How would you propose to enquire into the possibility of a godless universe given that you've already told us that you cannot imagine such a thing?

[Leonard James]

You have correctly identified the dilemma Len.
The brain is just a term for a collection of atoms and molecules which react with stimuli from parts of the human body.  Where are you in all these molecular particles?  You are certainly aware of the state of these particles, and their behaviour, but are you actually in these particles?

Alan, these particles ARE me. Why can't you see that? Evolution has produced in many life forms a brain, an interacting agglomeration of cells that can receive and react to incoming stimuli in what we call an intelligent manner ... even to the point of awareness in some species.

My dog will limp if it has something in its foot, and lick and pull until it gets it out. That is self-awareness. It wouldn't do the same for another dog, because its awareness isn't that developed, unlike humans.

[wigginhall]

One of the interesting aspects of this is the shift from 3rd person to 1st person.  Thus we study the brain as an object, but I am an I.   There is plenty of puzzlement as to how an object produces an I, but then AB has a magical solution, or a Tommy Cooper solution, God does it just like that.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

How would you propose to enquire into the possibility of a godless universe given that you've already told us that you cannot imagine such a thing?

I know it is labelled as personal incredulity, but I am quite certain that a godless universe would be incapable of producing complex life forms with conscious awareness, regardless of its size and age.

[Alan Burns]

My dog will limp if it has something in its foot, and lick and pull until it gets it out. That is self-awareness.

This just demonstrates the normal reactions you would expect from a biological machine generated by an evolutionary process based on survival.  Reactions are not the same thing as awareness.  Awareness can't be demonstrated by outwardly observed reactions.  It is an internal experience.

[Shaker]

I know it is labelled as personal incredulity ...

Yes it is, for good reason. So why say it anyway? Your certainty however heartfelt counts for nothing.

[Maeght]

I know it is labelled as personal incredulity, .....

Because that's what it is Alan.

[wigginhall]

Amazing how AB is certain about complex life forms,  but ask him how the soul connects to the brain?  Ah, a holy silence reigns.

[Alan Burns]

Short answer : we emerge* from them.

* Longer answers available on demand.

I am not aware of anything which actually emerges from electro chemical activity apart perhaps from slight disturbances in magnetic or gravitational fields.  The term "emergence" merely describes some form of complex activity perceived from outside, but there is nothing actually emerging from the activity.