Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

I do not think it will work if you do it as a sceptical test for God, because your mind will still not be open to allow Him in.

So if you do it as a 'oh fuck please don't leave me' kind of a test?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is ultimately a two way thing.  God calls people in many ways, but in order to answer that call we still need to let God into our lives.  In many cases there will be a crossroads in a person's life when they have the opportunity seek God's help, or go their own way.  I recall an artist depicting the "door" which lets God in where the handle to open the door is only on our side.

Which is all fine and dandy as an expression of your personal opinion on the matter. The questions though that's been put to you is - other than your personal faith - if you want to dismiss "man made" logic (albeit at the same time trying to use very bad versions of it) what method would you propose that anyone use instead to determine whether or not your faith is well-placed?

Just quoting from a book doesn't help you here - it's still just an article of your personal faith that the book is authoritative - so what would you propose instead?

And while you're at it, am I right in thinking that you're not open even to the possibility of there being no god at all?   

[Gordon]

I do not think it will work if you do it as a sceptical test for God, because your mind will still not be open to allow Him in.

So, ideally one has to suffer from confirmation bias before asking?

[Sebastian Toe]

I do not think it will work if you do it as a sceptical test for God, because your mind will still not be open to allow Him in.

Then step us though the process to be followed................

[Shaker]

So, ideally one has to suffer from confirmation bias before asking?

I was just about to say that unless I misunderstand him completely Alan is saying no more than that to believe in something you first have to believe in it. Eh?

[Rhiannon]

I was just about to say that unless I misunderstand him completely Alan is saying no more than that to believe in something you first have to believe in it. Eh?

A kind of spiritual placebo effect.

[Leonard James]

I think it is just as difficult for Alan to imagine no "God" as it is for us to imagine the opposite.

[torridon]

My earlier posts were meant to draw attention to the limitations of science and encourage people to look beyond the limits of our man made logic to discover the truth that lies beyond.

Given that I have only a human brain to think with it seems I'm stuffed. I can't just remove my head and replace it with something else.

[Shaker]

Given that I have only a human brain to think with it seems I'm stuffed. I can't just remove my head and replace it with something else.

Why not? Sassy seems to have done so.

I'll get me coat ... (Sorry Gordon  ).

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Len,

I think it is just as difficult for Alan to imagine no "God" as it is for us to imagine the opposite.

No doubt, but what he claims to want to do is to have others agree just to the"possibility" of god (something most of us do anyway, albeit in the same way that we're open to the possibility of leprechauns). The question though is whether or not he in turn is at least open to the possibility of no god at all. If he's not open even to that possibility, that's as good a definition of a closed mind as any.

He doesn't seem to be very keen to answer it though. 

[Alan Burns]

So, ideally one has to suffer from confirmation bias before asking?

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

[Maeght]

Maeght,

That’s the one argument for religions that gives me pause. Utter nonsense from top to bottom or not, it’s clearly therapeutically useful when who believe it are under great duress. Pointing out at times like that that their beliefs are probably wrong just sees gittish to me.

That said, the moment these folks start along the road of “it’s true for me so it must be true for you too” then they must expect the roof to fall in.

Yes, can't disagree with any of that.

[Leonard James]

Hi LEn,

No doubt, but what he claims to want to do is to have others agree just to the"possibility" of god (something most of us do anyway, albeit in the same way that we're open to the possibility of leprechauns). The question though is whether or not he in turn is at least open to the possibility of no god at all. If he's not open even to that possibility, that's as good a definition of a closed mind as any.

He doesn't seem to be very keen to answer it though.

I have a dismal feeling that all this is going nowhere. 

[BeRational]

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

Which I am as I am open minded.

You are closed minded as you cannot accept the possibility that your god does not exist.

[torridon]

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

Many people are open in that way but find nothing such as you describe. It seems you simply don't listen to other people and their experiences of life.

[Shaker]

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

Doesn't this assume that one knows exactly what it is that might be possible? I'm open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe; if it's reasonably like the life we're familiar with on this planet there are ways of being able to find out about it and we would know it when we encountered it.

I can't say the same for gods though, not out of any closed-mindedness but because nobody has explained to me exactly what it is I'm supposed to be open to the possibility of.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

For the most part, people already are open to that possibility.

The question though is this: are you open to the possibility that there is no god at all? 

[Rhiannon]

I have believed in God; actually my description of what that is like amounts to little more than 'warm and fuzzy feelings.'

[Gordon]

You just need to be genuinely open to the possibility that God exists before you can invite Him into your life.

Then you need a good argument to provide at least a sound basis for concluding that the divine is a viable option. If there is such an argument then we've yet to see it: the various arguments for theism we've seen to date all fail because they can all be undone as being examples of fallacies.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Gordon,

Then you need a good argument to provide at least a sound basis for concluding that the divine is a viable option. If there is such an argument then we've yet to see it: the various arguments for theism we've seen to date all fail because they can all be undone as being examples of fallacies.

To be fair, all he’s asking for just now is for people to be open to the possibility of “god” – any arguments to get him from the possibility to the probability are a separate matter (though the arguments he’s tried so far are desperately poor).

He seems to be unaware that most already are open to that possibility (which is why Richard Dawkins for example describes himself as a “6.9 atheist” rather than as a “7 atheist” where “7 atheist” means “there definitely is no god”).

The point though is that – unless he too is open at least to the possibility of no god – then there’s no basis on which the each side can examine the arguments of the other and reach a conclusion accordingly. Rather he’s just here to proselytise – “I’m right and you’re wrong regardless of anything you could ever say” – so it’s all a bit pointless. You can't reason with a closed mind.   

[Shaker]

Rather he’s just here to proselytise

In fairness he's been explicit about saying exactly this.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

In fairness he's been explicit about saying exactly this.

Then perhaps his posts should go to the faith sharing area rather than to an area intended for discussions?

[Shaker]

The trouble with that is that the FSA is for like-minded people, those who are already believers - Alan's here to win converts, to change people's minds so that they stop being sceptical, critical-thinking non-believers and come to believe what he believes.

Yes, I know. Hard to believe, but that's what he thinks of as his reason for being here.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

For the most part, people already are open to that possibility.

The question though is this: are you open to the possibility that there is no god at all?

I think one stumbling block would be trying to convince myself that conscious awareness can be generated from molecular activity alone.  It was over forty years ago that I concluded that my awareness of my own existence could not be generated in a Godless universe, and nothing has come close to convincing me otherwise.

[Sebastian Toe]

I think one stumbling block would be trying to convince myself that conscious awareness can be generated from molecular activity alone.  It was over forty years ago that I concluded that my awareness of my own existence could not be generated in a Godless universe, and nothing has come close to convincing me otherwise.

Is that a yes or a no?