Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

But if he doesn't accept that they are fallacies, he is not being dishonest.

He doesn't take the point on,he continually ignores the point. That seems deliberate.

[Leonard James]

He doesn't take the point on,he continually ignores the point. That seems deliberate.

i confess that I don't pay much attention in that respect, so it is up to him to explain.

[wigginhall]

I can't agree with that, Wigs. I am sure that Alan firmly believes everything he posts, although at times, as with the rest of us, things come out sounding not what we mean.

Yes, but he continually dodges questions, acts as if they haven't been asked before, moves the goal-posts, quote-mines, and generally ignores any contradictions pointed out by others.   He cheats.  Well, OK, if that's honest, I'm a blue-veined lungwort.

[Leonard James]

Yes, but he continually dodges questions, acts as if they haven't been asked before, moves the goal-posts, quote-mines, and generally ignores any contradictions pointed out by others.   He cheats.  Well, OK, if that's honest, I'm a blue-veined lungwort.

OK, I give up.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

Yes, but he continually dodges questions, acts as if they haven't been asked before, moves the goal-posts, quote-mines, and generally ignores any contradictions pointed out by others.   He cheats.  Well, OK, if that's honest, I'm a blue-veined lungwort.

Quite. And that's the problem with trying to engage with AB and his like - it's impossible have an argument/counter-argument type conversation where each side takes cognisance of the response of the other and develops his position accordingly. Indeed by his own admission AB cannot do that because he's told us categorically that he can't contemplate even the possibility of a godless universe.

All that's left to him therefore is a wrong conclusion he reached decades ago that he repeats endlessly regardless of how many times he's shown not only that it's wrong by why it's wrong.

And all that leaves is either just posting "wrong" every time he goes off the rails, or just ignoring him in the hope that he'll go away.

If I may, as a theist yourself you must despair at the tactics and poverty of argument from those on your "side" here. So far as I'm aware you've never argued for a "true for you too" god, but I feel your pain my friend         

[Shaker]

My beliefs are backed up by the millions of sincere devout Christians who have witnessed to their faith in words and deeds over the last two thousand years.

They're not backed up by; they're shared by.

There's a difference.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My beliefs are backed up by the millions of sincere devout Christians who have witnessed to their faith in words and deeds over the last two thousand years.

Just out of interest, do you think that the truth claims of a muslim would also be "backed up by the millions of sincere devout" muslims who also think they've "witnessed to their faith in words and deeds", or do you think that the argumentum ad populum fallacy ceases to be a fallacy only in respect of your own faith?

[SusanDoris]

But he continually posts as if the points have not been covered, and continually use fallacies after they have been pointed out. The lack of real engagement feels dishonest to me too.

And to me. If he was the decent chap that LJ says he is, then he might try to discuss points raised instead of using every means he can to build on the barrier he has erected around himself.

Alan Burns: #11429 You could start by actually answering the question here.

[jjohnjil]

And to me. If he was the decent chap that LJ says he is, then he might try to discuss points raised instead of using every means he can to build on the barrier he has erected around himself.

Hi Susan

I think the problem that all (or most) religious people have is that all religions have a built in carrot and stick method of keeping them in line.

Although none of them ever admit it, they are too scared to contradict what they've been told their god wants them to say. Whether or not they believe it - and I very much doubt that many do - they have to do as they're told. 

If a gunman held a gun to your head and told you that if you didn't do as you're told he would kill you, you would do it.  They are in the same boat.  AB has to shut his ears to any argument because of fear.  After all, the Bible actually tells them to fear God!

Hope is a very intelligent guy and I suspect Alan is too but unbelievers like us cannot put ourselves in that unenviable position of fearing the monster in the sky.

So, as much as he makes you want to tear your hair out (that's why I'm bald) you have to feel sorry for him and all the other 'strong' theists. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Susan,

And to me. If he was the decent chap that LJ says he is, then he might try to discuss points raised instead of using every means he can to build on the barrier he has erected around himself.

To be accurate, I'm not sure he does build on it does he? Rather he just keeps pointing at it regardless of how many times he's shown it's illusory.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jj,

Hope is a very intelligent guy and I suspect Alan is too...

Really? Why?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Just out of interest, do you think that the truth claims of a muslim would also be "backed up by the millions of sincere devout" muslims who also think they've "witnessed to their faith in words and deeds", or do you think that the argumentum ad populum fallacy ceases to be a fallacy only in respect of your own faith?

I accept that numbers alone are not a valid proof of my belief, but my post was just a specific answer to ippy's continued implication that I am an oddball for believing what I do.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I accept that numbers alone are not a valid proof of my belief...

It's not that "numbers alone" are not a valid proof, but rather that numbers at all are not a valid proof. If you think otherwise, then you must allow the same concession to muslims - and there are more of them than there are Christians, so if you really think that truth is the outcome of a popularity contest even partially you lose.

...but my post was just a specific answer to ippy's continued implication that I am an oddball for believing what I do.

But you are an "oddball" (to use your term) in the sense that you trust your personal opinion over the overwhelming consensus of the findings of various relevant disciplines, most notably neuroscience. Moreover there are plenty of Christians too who don't use the rationale on which you rely. 

That's not to say that outliers are necessarily wrong, but it is to say that the personal opinions you offer here are evidentially worthless because they fail entirely to deal with the reason and evidence that undoes them. Endless repetition doesn't help you with that, so an "oddball" you must remain until you finally manage to rebut the prevailing understanding of consciousness. 

[SusanDoris]

AB has to shut his ears to any argument because of fear.  After all, the Bible actually tells them to fear God!

Okay, but why does he continue to post here, I wonder? It must be for a personal, confidence-boosting reason, I think, as he must by now know he's not going to add any new recruits to the fold he occupies - on the contrary, he is far morelikely to drive them away, in the same way that those (extremely boring!) street evangelists do.  If he has some unfulfilled wish to break through the impenetrable,
, suffocatingly cottonwool barrier, then he shows no signs of so doing. Maybe he is in some wayenvious of those who know there is no God and that all our lives and strengths are 100% human and have evolved.

So, as much as he makes you want to tear your hair out (that's why I'm bald) you have to feel sorry for him and all the other 'strong' theists.

No, I don't think I'm sorry for him any more; I wonder whether he has reached a stage here where he feels he is being really clever in maintaining his position.

[wigginhall]

He gets lots of attention. 

[SusanDoris]

Hi Susan,

To be accurate, I'm not sure he does build on it does he? Rather he just keeps pointing at it regardless of how many times he's shown it's illusory.

To continue the analogy - perhaps he is constantly trying to repair the breaches in the wall made by those of us who have the rational answers!

As wigginhall says, he gets attention, but I wonder how he evaluates it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Susan,

To continue the analogy - perhaps he is constantly trying to repair the breaches in the wall made by those of us who have the rational answers!

But even then he'd have to be doing something to shore it up. Instead he just keeps pointing at it - essentially, "Yeah, but it goes to eleven!"*

* Nigel Tufnel, "This Is Spinal Tap".

[ippy]

My beliefs are backed up by the millions of sincere devout Christians who have witnessed to their faith in words and deeds over the last two thousand years.

Alan that's a bit like a million times zero equals guess what? Do I really need to say?

All these billions of followers and not one of them including you have found anything that would establish their beliefs are anything more than fictional old stories based on myth, magic and superstition.

When someone does come up with the necessary I'll have to join you, have you any idea how long I will have to wait, only I'm 74 this year, d'you think you might catch me before my toe curling time, I'm sure you know the answer but are unable to cut the tie with all of those wasted years of investment in fables, superstition, loss of face etc, to admit it.

I find it easy to understand the social side of religion with all of those unlikely stories you would need to socialise with each other just for reinforcement so that it doesn't feel so awkward when you try to explain why you profess to still believe in those bronze age and older primitive stories, a sort of collective no it's not just me that believes them, feeling

ippy 

[wigginhall]

The old saying - a billion flies can't be wrong. 

[Rhiannon]

He gets lots of attention.

Lots of lovely strokes.

[wigginhall]

Lots of lovely strokes.

A friend of mine remembers often leaving his coat at school.   He got in trouble big time, mum screaming at him, blah blah blah, but hang on, he was getting her undivided attention.   

[Rhiannon]

A friend of mine remembers often leaving his coat at school.   He got in trouble big time, mum screaming at him, blah blah blah, but hang on, he was getting her undivided attention.

In this case I think I'm beginning to detect the whiff of burning martyr.

[Shaker]

In this case I think I'm beginning to detect the whiff of burning martyr.

Makes a change from what I usually smell.

[ippy]

Okay, but why does he continue to post here, I wonder? It must be for a personal, confidence-boosting reason, I think, as he must by now know he's not going to add any new recruits to the fold he occupies - on the contrary, he is far morelikely to drive them away, in the same way that those (extremely boring!) street evangelists do.  If he has some unfulfilled wish to break through the impenetrable,
, suffocatingly cottonwool barrier, then he shows no signs of so doing. Maybe he is in some wayenvious of those who know there is no God and that all our lives and strengths are 100% human and have evolved.No, I don't think I'm sorry for him any more; I wonder whether he has reached a stage here where he feels he is being really clever in maintaining his position.

Susan the qualified psychologists in my immediate family, refer to church attendance by these people as reinforcement meetings, I have no reason to question that pov.

ippy

[ippy]

The old saying - a billion flies can't be wrong.

I like that one Wiggie, the graffiti that I cant forget was someone had drawn two cubes and wrote under them "Bollocks to Picasso", makes me smile whenever anyone even quotes such profound graffiti as your billion flies, it's always there.

ippy