Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is generally understood that God exists in a timeless dimension which is beyond our understanding.

"Generally understood" by whom exactly?

Do you not think that perhaps you should concern yourself with demonstrating the fact of this "God" in the first place, and only then trouble with claims about where he lives?

And as NS has already pointed out, if this supposed god already knows what I'll decide to do next Tuesday what "free" will do I have to do anything other than what this supposed god already knows I'll do next Tuesday?

[wigginhall]

Another classic example of quote-mining above, but also I did enjoy AB's sentence, 'it is generally understood that God exists in a timeless dimension which is beyond our understanding'. 

This theism stuff is very very 'ard, innit, cos something can be understood and not understood at the same time.  Genius, really.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This god of yours should be blaming itself for doing such a bad job of making us, then.

He didn't carve you out of wood or give you strings did he?

[Brownie]

To be fair, if my wife says here's a tasty apple I would be far more likely.to go, 'Thanks hon' than of a serpent suddenly went 'Go scrumping!'

Very good point NS  .   However I think the devil spent a very long time wearing down Eve.  Had he chosen Adam, it would have been over in five minutes, then Adam would have had to persuade Eve which would have taken a very long time, if ever.  Indeed, Adam may even have died before Eve was persuaded  !  In which case we would have had a different creation story. 
Just my idle musings.  No offence meant to any men, I like men and married one more than forty years ago.

Wigginhall, you quoted Alan who said: "it is generally understood that God exists in a timeless dimension which is beyond our understanding"
Indeed Christians do believe that but for most of us it takes a lot of time, research, agonising etc before we can accept it so it isn't something that is trotted out easily.  God is a mystery.

[wigginhall]

Brownie wrote:

Wigginhall, you quoted Alan who said: "it is generally understood that God exists in a timeless dimension which is beyond our understanding"
Indeed Christians do believe that but for most of us it takes a lot of time, research, agonising etc before we can accept it so it isn't something that is trotted out easily.  God is a mystery.

It just seems a long-winded way of saying 'I don't know'.   In fact, a lot of AB's stuff seems like that - how could he know about supernatural stuff?   I think 'I don't know' is a perfectly honourable position, but then it gets dressed up as 'it's generally understood that God is beyond our understanding', it's becoming farcical.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

It just seems a long-winded way of saying 'I don't know'.   In fact, a lot of AB's stuff seems like that - how could he know about supernatural stuff?   I think 'I don't know' is a perfectly honourable position, but then it gets dressed up as 'it's generally understood that God is beyond our understanding', it's becoming farcical.

As for that matter is, "it's a mystery". Odd that some will confidently tell us all sorts of thing about what their god thinks and wants, yet when the problems with these claims are pointed out they'll trot out the "it's a mystery" line for the bits that make no sense.

I think I'll try it:

"OK, so if you think there are leprechauns how do they leaves pots of gold at the ends of rainbows then?"

"It's a mystery!"

Hey, there might be something in this!

[ekim]

Very good point NS  .   However I think the devil spent a very long time wearing down Eve.  Had he chosen Adam, it would have been over in five minutes, then Adam would have had to persuade Eve which would have taken a very long time, if ever.  Indeed, Adam may even have died before Eve was persuaded  !  In which case we would have had a different creation story. 

Wouldn't you expect that from somebody manufactured from a rib? 

[Brownie]

Ah well, leprechauns deserve a thread of their own, bless 'em.

The early Christian mystics spent a lot of time trying to understand the nature of God, or what God is, and then came up with a conclusion that the way to gain insight is to abandon all previous ideas, ego and stop striving but surrender to the notion that God is unknowable.  Then insights into the nature of God will happen. 

I daresay that involves a lot of meditation, something I've never been able to do effectively.  I day dream and my mind wanders. Very pleasant but not meditation, indeed I will have left the original subject far behind. So, like Alan, I will be content to not understand God.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Brownie,

Ah well, leprechauns deserve a thread of their own, bless 'em.

They've had several.

The early Christian mystics spent a lot of time trying to understand the nature of God, or what God is, and then came up with a conclusion that the way to gain insight is to abandon all previous ideas, ego and stop striving but surrender to the notion that God is unknowable.  Then insights into the nature of God will happen.

Look again at that last bit: how can you have a god who's "unknowable" and at the same time have "insights" into his "nature"?

You can have one or the other if you wish, but not both.   

I daresay that involves a lot of meditation, something I've never been able to do effectively.  I day dream and my mind wanders. Very pleasant but not meditation, indeed I will have left the original subject far behind. So, like Alan, I will be content to not understand God.

It requires more than that - driving the proverbial coach and four through some basic logic for starters.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Wiggs,

As for that matter is, "it's a mystery". Odd that some will confidently tell us all sorts of thing about what their god thinks and wants, yet when the problems with these claims are pointed out they'll trot out the "it's a mystery" line for the bits that make no sense.

I think I'll try it:

"OK, so if you think there are leprechauns how do they leaves pots of gold at the ends of rainbows then?"

"It's a mystery!"

Hey, there might be something in this!

How is that different from the supposedly respectable antitheist "we don't know" or the even more disreputable " We don't know but we know there isn't a God".?

[Brownie]

I wouldn't know bluehillside because I don't have any great insights.  If I did I'd probably dismiss them as me being fanciful, or else enjoy them as fantasies.  I can't answer for others though.  The idea of submitting to the fact that God is unknowable is about surrendering ego;  the mystics say that if one can do that, God may show them that he is not so unknowable after all.  I think that is all to do with deep meditation and altered consciousness.

So...who knows?
(Not me and, evidently, not Alan.  Never mind, we get by.)

I didn't know leprechauns have had several threads though they were mentioned on another thread not long ago.  I wonder what leprechauns eat and if I should put some food out for them before I go to bed.

[ekim]

Look again at that last bit: how can you have a god who's "unknowable" and at the same time have "insights" into his "nature"?

The way of the mystic is not about knowing as a concept but more about merging into what it might refer to as the divine so that the inner 'nature' or 'being' of the individual is at one with the supreme 'being'.

[Gordon]

I wonder what leprechauns eat and if I should put some food out for them before I go to bed.

Some Doritos, obviously, and any gold you can spare 

[Brownie]

ekim:  "The way of the mystic is not about knowing as a concept but more about merging into what it might refer to as the divine so that the inner 'nature' or 'being' of the individual is at one with the supreme 'being'."

I really like that ekim and wish I could achieve it.

----------------

Gordon, the leprachauns can go take a running jump if they won't share my cats' food.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Brownie,

I wouldn't know bluehillside because I don't have any great insights.  If I did I'd probably dismiss them as me being fanciful, or else enjoy them as fantasies.  I can't answer for others though.  The idea of submitting to the fact that God is unknowable is about surrendering ego;  the mystics say that if one can do that, God may show them that he is not so unknowable after all.  I think that is all to do with deep meditation and altered consciousness.

So...who knows?
(Not me and, evidently, not Alan.  Never mind, we get by.)

Clearly. I wasn't so much asking you for your insights though as pointing up the contradiction in the premise - first decide that god is unknowable, then you'll get to know things about him.

I didn't know leprechauns have had several threads though they were mentioned on another thread not long ago.  I wonder what leprechauns eat and if I should put some food out for them before I go to bed.

That'll be another mystery I guess. Leprechauns are useful though for the purposes of bluehillside's fourth maxim, namely that an argument for "God" that works just as well for leprechauns is probably a bad argument. The usual suspects have thrown irrelevancies at it, but the premise stands nonetheless I think.

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

The way of the mystic is not about knowing as a concept but more about merging into what it might refer to as the divine so that the inner 'nature' or 'being' of the individual is at one with the supreme 'being'.

Ooh, and the Buddhist says "you can't step into the same river twice", but the mystic says "you can't step into the river once"...

Life is purple, I am puce....like whoa maaan...

All very jolly I guess, but it'd be nice to have some sort of case for this "supreme being" to start with wouldn't it?

 

[Brownie]

Immerse yourself in ''The Cloud of Unknowing'', and then report back.  If you don't we'll assume you have become one with the unknown.

[Leonard James]

All very jolly I guess, but it'd be nice to have some sort of case for this "supreme being" to start with wouldn't it?

I don't think so! Life is enjoyable, straightforward, and fulfilling enough without it. Some people just like to complicate themselves.

[Brownie]

By posting on forums with complicated people Len. Tut, perish the thought.

[Leonard James]

By posting on forums with complicated people Len. Tut, perish the thought.

It's fine as long as you don't let them corrupt your clear thinking! 

[Brownie]

Ah but we must have dreams, Len.

Remember oh Grasshopper -

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.
There is no coming to consciousness without pain.
Make love, not war.
Be excellent to eachother and leprachauns.

[torridon]

I don't think so! Life is enjoyable, straightforward, and fulfilling enough without it. Some people just like to complicate themselves.

I guess for lots of people, life is more fulfilling, more meaningful, with something to worship.

[Leonard James]

I guess for lots of people, life is more fulfilling, more meaningful, with something to worship.

Yes, I'm sorry ... I stupidly omitted the people who have been dealt bad hands in life's lottery.

[torridon]

Yes, I'm sorry ... I stupidly omitted the people who have been dealt bad hands in life's lottery.

I think I have some sympathy with Gonners' position here - that for most humans, worship comes naturally, its part of our evolutionary heritage, part of our legacy. Not that that validates an intellectual belief in God, but I recognise that many find fulfillment and meaning through ritual and devotion to something undefinable that is beyond the here and now

[Leonard James]

I think I have some sympathy with Gonners' position here - that for most humans, worship comes naturally, its part of our evolutionary heritage, part of our legacy. Not that that validates an intellectual belief in God, but I recognise that many find fulfillment and meaning through ritual and devotion to something undefinable that is beyond the here and now

Yes, I agree that we are genetically inclined towards such beliefs because they favoured cohesion in group survival.

However, now that we have the ability to recognise it as such, we have to move on and take more rational attitudes.