Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

Brownie,

Clearly. I wasn't so much asking you for your insights though as pointing up the contradiction in the premise - first decide that god is unknowable, then you'll get to know things about him.

That'll be another mystery I guess. Leprechauns are useful though for the purposes of bluehillside's fourth maxim, namely that an argument for "God" that works just as well for leprechauns is probably a bad argument. The usual suspects have thrown irrelevancies at it, but the premise stands nonetheless I think.

Leprechauns? Blue, I've noticed you seem to be mentioning them more regularly lately?

Not inadvertantly read the Mail again?

ippy

[ekim]

ekim,

Ooh, and the Buddhist says "you can't step into the same river twice", but the mystic says "you can't step into the river once"...

Life is purple, I am puce....like whoa maaan...

All very jolly I guess, but it'd be nice to have some sort of case for this "supreme being" to start with wouldn't it?

The mystic might say you are part of the river that has become frozen and if you learn how to melt you will merge with the water and enjoy the flow to the great ocean.  It might go towards satisfying a conceptualising mind if there was a 'case' and a 'supreme being' object to think about but to the mystic inner stillness beyond the mental activity is the way.  You can see by the length of this topic how the minds go round and round in circles trying to work out the puzzles.  Contrary to Len's 'Some people just like to complicate themselves.' the mystic tends to simplify himself and sees the agitated mind as the complicator.

[wigginhall]

Immerse yourself in ''The Cloud of Unknowing'', and then report back.  If you don't we'll assume you have become one with the unknown.

I have read it a few times, as I am interested in mystical ideas, East and West.   It is an interesting book, as it seems to be talking about loss of separation, or loss of ego, loss of the cognizing subject, and then a kind of merger into something whole or unified.   This is quite like some ideas in Buddism, but of course, generally Buddhists don't end up with God, as for them, this sets up another conceptual distinction, which you have just been letting go of!

But in any case, this view of God seems very different from that put forward by AB, and some other Christians, which seems more like the Fat Controller, to me, although in fact, his control doesn't seem very extensive.

[floo]

Genesis 3v 8/9 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”



So god has legs, is a noisy walker, and had to search for Adam and Eve, but couldn't find them! So much for an omnipotent deity!

[Leonard James]

Genesis 3v 8/9 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”



So god has legs, is a noisy walker, and had to search for Adam and Eve, but couldn't find them! So much for an omnipotent deity!

Wife? I thought she was just his helpmate? When did they get married?

[wigginhall]

"Where are you?"  (God)

"Behind you."  (Adam)

[floo]

Wife? I thought she was just his helpmate? When did they get married?

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, sorry LJ what has this got to do with A&E being wed or not?

[Brownie]

Genesis 3v 8/9 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”



So god has legs, is a noisy walker, and had to search for Adam and Eve, but couldn't find them! So much for an omnipotent deity!

Allegory floo, but you know that!

[Alan Burns]

But in any case, this view of God seems very different from that put forward by AB, and some other Christians, which seems more like the Fat Controller, to me, although in fact, his control doesn't seem very extensive.

By creating beings with their own awareness and free will, God has delegated the power to control.

However, for those who insist that we live in a universe where every event is caused by materially determined previous events, there can be no such thing as control, just unavoidable reaction to these events.

[Leonard James]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, sorry LJ what has this got to do with A&E being wed or not?

How does a guy get a wife if he doesn't get married?

[Stranger]

By creating beings with their own awareness and free will, God has delegated the power to control.

Again - free will is meaningless if you insist on an omnipotent, omniscient creator.

However, for those who insist that we live in a universe where every event is caused by materially determined previous events, there can be no such thing as control, just unavoidable reaction to these events.

Why are you so obsessed with adding "materially" to "determined"? It doesn't change what "determined" means and it doesn't change the fact that the only alternative to determined is random.

[Enki]

"Where are you?"  (God)

"Behind you."  (Adam)

Oh no, he isn't.

[ippy]

Have we got the free will to have free will?

I didn't think we had a choice about free will, surly we've got free will whether we want it or not?

Why do we need some sort of religion bollocks about someone or something giving it to us?

Every time I hear about this needless, pointless, wast of time, load of old bollocks about free will, usually espoused by some religious nut or another my first thought is why don't they go join the foreign office, I wish they would.

ippy

[Brownie]

How does a guy get a wife if he doesn't get married?

Remember, the story is that there were only two people whom God created to be together.  No problem about ceremonies/sacraments/legal stuff which are a man made thing.

In today's society, many Christians believe that if two people live together, in the eyes of God they are married.  I have no opinion about that but I have been told it a few times.  Catholics only recognise a marriage performed by a priest, for Catholics, but their teaching is that if a couple are stranded somewhere and find themselves to be the only couple in the vicinity (like shipwrecked on an island!  Very unlikely but possible), they are married in the eyes of the Lord - assuming they fancy eachother of course  .

[BeRational]

Remember, the story is that there were only two people whom God created to be together.  No problem about ceremonies/sacraments/legal stuff which are a man made thing.

In today's society, many Christians believe that if two people live together, in the eyes of God they are married.  I have no opinion about that but I have been told it a few times.  Catholics only recognise a marriage performed by a priest, for Catholics, but their teaching is that if a couple are stranded somewhere and find themselves to be the only couple in the vicinity (like shipwrecked on an island!  Very unlikely but possible), they are married in the eyes of the Lord - assuming they fancy eachother of course  .

What if they are already married to other people before they were shipwrecked?

[Brownie]

I don't know, will have to 'phone a friend.

[Leonard James]

Remember, the story is that there were only two people whom God created to be together.  No problem about ceremonies/sacraments/legal stuff which are a man made thing.

Well, this has really got out of hand! My reply to Floo was merely a joke about the Genesis story, which makes no mention of "wife".

I don't believe a word of any of it, so we shouldn't really waste any more time discussing it! 

[floo]

Well, this has really got out of hand! My reply to Floo was merely a joke about the Genesis story, which makes no mention of "wife".

I don't believe a word of any of it, so we shouldn't really waste any more time discussing it! 

God should certainly have performed the nuptials before permitting A&E to enjoy a bit of hanky panky!

[OH MY WORLD!]

So Floo, since you want to quote scripture today. Pull up the one where it tells you a man and woman can't be married by God, they must be married by my Baptist preachers. I notice you have sex on your brain again today. Poor old thing!

[Brownie]

OMW, it is a subject oft discussed so is important to others, if not to you or I.
Len, I was merely giving the Christian position (note I do not say the missionary position).
Floo, for all we know God did perform a rudimentary ceremony!  It just isn't mentioned in the story - but I don't have to tell you that, you already know as you would have been taught it when you were a kid.
The story of Adam and Eve is allegorical though there are some Christians who believe it literally.  A few Christians.  Very few I think.

[floo]

Only more extreme Christians believe in the literal truth of the Bible. I am so glad my children, who are Christians, aren't fundies or Biblical literalists, that would be hard to live with.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Brownie,
Could you point out to me from the book of Luke chapter 3 (the genealogy) starting at verse 23, where the names stop being literal and become figurative or mythical?

[Brownie]

Only more extreme Christians believe in the literal truth of the Bible. I am so glad my children, who are Christians, aren't fundies or Biblical literalists, that would be hard to live with.

This forum has nothing to do with any of our children floo, we do not need them or anyone else to back up our opinions.
OMW I will look at the passage you mentioned and return sine die.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Hard to live with floo? You have told us you don't allow your girls to talk about God in your house!

[floo]

This forum has nothing to do with any of our children floo, we do not need them or anyone else to back up our opinions.
OMW I will look at the passage you mentioned and return sine die.

Did I say I needed my children to back up my opinions? My opinions are all my own, just as their opinions are theirs.

By common consent religion isn't discussed in our home, of course it isn't forbidden. But having brought up my daughters I know what they think on the topic of religion!