Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3887785 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11175 on: March 13, 2016, 10:45:26 AM »
But the brain is just composed of the same electrons, neurons and protons as you ill find in a lump of rock!  You are so much more than this!

What is different is the arrangement.  You are what you ate yesterday; take a hamburger and fries and rearrange it into Alan Burns shape and it will start thinking, (very) basically

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11176 on: March 13, 2016, 10:53:56 AM »
Dear Floo,

A wee Muslim chap on the Big Question has just stated, if you are troubled by God then you have place in Heaven, are you troubled by the Evil Deity :P

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

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Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11177 on: March 13, 2016, 11:38:14 AM »
Dear Floo,

A wee Muslim chap on the Big Question has just stated, if you are troubled by God then you have place in Heaven, are you troubled by the Evil Deity :P

Gonnagle.

Oh well I am definitely not destined for heaven, thank goodness. How can I be personally troubled by an entity I don't believe exists?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11178 on: March 13, 2016, 11:57:00 AM »
Oh well I am definitely not destined for heaven, thank goodness. How can I be personally troubled by an entity I don't believe exists?
Unless of course the Eastern Orthodox view of hell which is an eternity of the very God one wanted to walk away from. Heaven if you liove God hell if you hate him.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11179 on: March 13, 2016, 11:59:23 AM »
Unless of course the Eastern Orthodox view of hell which is an eternity of the very God one wanted to walk away from. Heaven if you liove God hell if you hate him.

Jolly good! ;D

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11180 on: March 13, 2016, 12:02:04 PM »
Jolly good! ;D
I just feel moved to give you a smiley face Floo :)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11181 on: March 13, 2016, 12:03:58 PM »
I just feel moved to give you a smiley face Floo :)

I don't want to go to heaven if it exists and is inhabited by the Biblical deity!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11182 on: March 13, 2016, 12:08:30 PM »
I don't want to go to heaven if it exists and is inhabited by the Biblical deity!
I don't believe your version of the biblical deity.....it is a caricature.
Nobody loves it. It is part of your fantasy that people love your caricature version.

I think it's all calculated to fuel your self righteousness and sense of superiority.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11183 on: March 13, 2016, 12:14:50 PM »
So you like to believe, but I'm afraid there is no evidence that such is the case. We are just an agglomeration of chemicals reacting to the environment.

I know that offends your self-appraisal, Alan, but it is the truth.  :)
I am often accused of invoking magic when I try to explain God's revelation of the human soul, but I must say that magic does come to my mind with the assumption that conscious awareness somehow emerges from chemical activity alone.   I must re assert my conviction that conscious awareness is derived from perception of our brain activity.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11184 on: March 13, 2016, 12:19:28 PM »
I don't believe your version of the biblical deity.....it is a caricature.
Nobody loves it. It is part of your fantasy that people love your caricature version.

I think it's all calculated to fuel your self righteousness and sense of superiority.

My version of the Biblical deity is based on my reading of the Bible. There is nothing good about what is attributed to it in that book.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11185 on: March 13, 2016, 12:21:05 PM »
We do have a material model for the mechanism, it is known as the reticular activating system, the most important organ of which assembly is the periaqueductal gray, which orchestrates the cross brain synchronicity of multi modal sensory information flows into the single blended unified information flow that we call conscious experience.

You are using a lot of technical jargon to explain what ultimately boils down to a flow of electrons in our brain.  You still need something to perceive the content of this flow to generate conscious awareness.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11186 on: March 13, 2016, 12:22:33 PM »
I must re assert my conviction that conscious awareness is derived from perception of our brain activity.

Well, if you must, you must, but it remains nothing but a baseless assertion unless you can provide evidence and/or reasoning to support it...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11187 on: March 13, 2016, 12:32:55 PM »
No we are NOT!

Well. maybe not in your case. I suppose you could be the exception to the rule.
If Christ could make descendants of Abraham our of rocks who knows what Satan could have done with a rock...

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11188 on: March 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Alan Burns on March 10, 2016, 08:58:39 AM

    I need to clarify:

    None of us are immune from sin in the eyes of God.
The clarification doesn't alter the import of what I said, though. Sin by the very definition of the word is wrongdoing in the eyes of a god; if you don't believe in any gods, there are no gods to dictate wrongdoing, which then becomes - entirely as it should be - a matter of the happiness or otherwise of sentient beings.

I think you have hit upon the very thing that separates us from God's love.
By not acknowledging our sins, we are preventing ourselves from knowing God.

Contrary to popular belief, God does not wish to punish us for our sins, as well illustrated in the bible stories of the Prodigal Son and the woman caught in adultery.  He just wants us to acknowledge our sins and accept His forgiveness, then we can enter into the glorious relationship which He intended for us.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11189 on: March 13, 2016, 01:15:17 PM »
I think you have hit upon the very thing that separates us from God's love.
By not acknowledging our sins, we are preventing ourselves from knowing God.
Ever heard of circular reasoning, Alan?

Sin and gods go together, as already outlined. They stand or fall together - I suppose it's possible, just about, to believe in a god but not in sin, but vice versa seems to me an impossible position. Anybody who doesn't believe that any gods exist concomitantly doesn't believe in sin or in any love to be separated from. It's as simple as that and I don't understand what it is that you're not getting about this.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:49:08 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11190 on: March 13, 2016, 01:22:10 PM »
The clarification doesn't alter the import of what I said, though. Sin by the very definition of the word is wrongdoing in the eyes of a god; if you don't believe in any gods, there are no gods to dictate wrongdoing, which then becomes - entirely as it should be - a matter of the happiness or otherwise of sentient beings.


I think you have hit upon the very thing that separates us from God's love.
By not acknowledging our sins, we are preventing ourselves from knowing God.

Contrary to popular belief, God does not wish to punish us for our sins, as well illustrated in the bible stories of the Prodigal Son and the woman caught in adultery.  He just wants us to acknowledge our sins and accept His forgiveness, then we can enter into the glorious relationship which He intended for us.

Dear God,

I understand that you want to forgive me for something.

Well Ta.

Don't know what it is I did as you, apparently, are my manufacturer, so really only doing what you created me to do.

Now what?

Cheers,

Stephen,

PS. Don't know your address but AB seems to know an awful lot about you, despite the fact you are a mystery apparently, so hopefully he will forwards it to you.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11191 on: March 13, 2016, 01:57:32 PM »
Dear God,

I understand that you want to forgive me for something.

Well Ta.

Don't know what it is I did as you, apparently, are my manufacturer, so really only doing what you created me to do.
Ah, but Alan will here pull out his permanent trump card - free will. (Never mind that such a thing has never been demonstrated to exist, but still ...).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11192 on: March 13, 2016, 02:01:17 PM »
The clarification doesn't alter the import of what I said, though. Sin by the very definition of the word is wrongdoing in the eyes of a god; if you don't believe in any gods, there are no gods to dictate wrongdoing, which then becomes - entirely as it should be - a matter of the happiness or otherwise of sentient beings.


I think you have hit upon the very thing that separates us from God's love.
By not acknowledging our sins, we are preventing ourselves from knowing God.

Contrary to popular belief, God does not wish to punish us for our sins, as well illustrated in the bible stories of the Prodigal Son and the woman caught in adultery.  He just wants us to acknowledge our sins and accept His forgiveness, then we can enter into the glorious relationship which He intended for us.

I keep trying to let you know that you have finally cracked Alan,  stand back and have another look at your posts, anything rational got up and walked out a long time ago, lately your posts are more akin to ravings and as Shakes says you're going around in circles with little more than ravings.

Now belief in " Star Trek" Alan, come on we'll see em all off together.

ippy

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11193 on: March 13, 2016, 02:08:19 PM »
Ah, but Alan will here pull out his permanent trump card - free will. (Never mind that such a thing has never been demonstrated to exist, but still ...).

Even free will did exist God would still be to blame. If he actualised the world knowing what all the "free will" decisions would be then he would still be responsible.

Anyway, apparently he wants to forgive me so if it makes him feel better to do so then no problem. Everyone is happy.



torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11194 on: March 13, 2016, 02:26:22 PM »
You are using a lot of technical jargon to explain what ultimately boils down to a flow of electrons in our brain.  You still need something to perceive the content of this flow to generate conscious awareness.

No, this information flow is the stream of conscious experience. You don't need to posit a second oberserver. If a 'soul' has some supernatural powers with which it can look at 'brain cells' why doesn't it just use those powers to source its own experience, look directly at the world, rather than trying to reverse engineer experience by looking at that cold damp grey matter in my head.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:08:55 PM by torridon »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11195 on: March 13, 2016, 03:35:59 PM »
This idea of the spectator or observer has been quite common in popular thinking  (folk psychology), and Dennett writes about it as the Cartesian theatre, which is quite witty.   If you imagine reality as projected onto a cinema screen, then you are in the seat at the front, watching reality.

Of course, it's often been pointed out that this observer must have another observer, which detects it, and so on, infinitely. 

Another problem is that the observer seems to float outside the brain; so where is it?   For theists such as AB, this is not a problem, since he can just say, oh, it's the soul, therefore no description is required. 

The biggest problem with it is that it seems to say that the first person stream of experience cannot be generated by the brain.   But why not?   Of course, neurologists and psychologists have not fully described how this works, and here is a nice gap, where AB can insert the soul, and then God. 

But I suspect that answers will be found to this before long.  Certainly, it's clear now that the brain does not just record sensory information, but constructs representations - this is why illusions and dreams are possible.  See also research into change blindness. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11196 on: March 13, 2016, 03:40:01 PM »
I am often accused of invoking magic when I try to explain God's revelation of the human soul, but I must say that magic does come to my mind with the assumption that conscious awareness somehow emerges from chemical activity alone.   I must re assert my conviction that conscious awareness is derived from perception of our brain activity.

I give up! At least for now.  :)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11197 on: March 13, 2016, 03:41:18 PM »
Assert, re-wind, re-assert, re-wind, re-assert ...
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11198 on: March 13, 2016, 03:44:41 PM »
I give up! At least for now.  :)

But why bother with a brain at all. Why can't the soul, just perceive things? And why do we have physical bodies, why not just have the soul wandering around.

It would save on the need for lungs, hearts, bottoms, the whole lot.! And if there were no willies and bottoms that would be one sin (according to some believers) that couldn't happen.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #11199 on: March 13, 2016, 03:47:22 PM »
But why bother with a brain at all. Why can't the soul, just perceive things? And why do we have physical bodies, why not just have the soul wandering around.

It would save on the need for lungs, hearts, bottoms, the whole lot.! And if there were no willies and bottoms that would be one sin (according to some believers) that couldn't happen.

OK, Alan, Stephen has taken up the cudgel in my place.  ;D