Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

No, this information flow is the stream of conscious experience. You don't need to posit a second observer.

So in essence you are implying that "you" are just a flow of electrons.   

[BeRational]

So in essence you are implying that "you" are just a flow of electrons.   

So what?

Just because you do not like an answer, it does not make the answer wrong.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Alan,

Did you forward my letter to God yet? I am eager for his response.

[wigginhall]

But why bother with a brain at all. Why can't the soul, just perceive things? And why do we have physical bodies, why not just have the soul wandering around.

It would save on the need for lungs, hearts, bottoms, the whole lot.! And if there were no willies and bottoms that would be one sin (according to some believers) that couldn't happen.

Yes, that's a similar argument to the one about heaven.   If heaven is so idyllic and unspoiled, why do we have earth, and all the difficult stuff, plus of course, us being naughty?   Playing devil's advocate, there's something here about the incarnation, and the earth being good and so on, but it's not as good, is it?

As you say, if the soul is such a brilliant box of tricks, why bother with brains?

[wigginhall]

You can see what a blow to some people's egotism this is.   What?  I'm just molecules and stuff?  No, I'm something ethereal and magical and gossamer-light and pretty.  And baby Jesus luurves me.

[Shaker]

Harsh. But accurate!

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

You can see what a blow to some people's egotism this is.   What?  I'm just molecules and stuff?  No, I'm something ethereal and magical and gossamer-light and pretty.  And baby Jesus luurves me.

yes I think that is true of some. But in others maybe there is a fear of not being able to find meaning in their lives and it is a kind of coping mechanism, and that's fine as long as you don't insist it is true for others.

As I have mentioned earlier my way out of depression was to connect with some inner self. I suppose for some that could be God instead.

[Dicky Underpants]

Of course, it's often been pointed out that this observer must have another observer, which detects it, and so on, infinitely. 

'This observer' should be able to look backwards as well. I used to go into contortions trying to spot my 'transcendental ego'.

[ekim]

'This observer' should be able to look backwards as well. I used to go into contortions trying to spot my 'transcendental ego'.

I'm not surprised.

[wigginhall]

Driving is an interesting example of the brain shifting between unconscious, semi-conscious and conscious states.  I mean, you can drive for an hour, but be in a kind of automatic state, aware of the road, your own car, and maybe you are also thinking about stuff, listening to music, etc.   But it can pass in a sort of haze.

And after the journey, you may not remember very much, unless something unexpected happens, when your attentions sharpens (hopefully!).

This all seems very fuzzy, and neurologists seem to be exploring this fuzziness, so that our awareness seems less clear and sharp-edged than used to be thought.   Dennett has the interesting analogy of fame, which is also fuzzy, (at what point did someone become famous?).   In fact, he calls it fame in the brain.   And yes, the soul is hovering there, watching it all, and just waiting to pounce, (joke). 

Another analogy is with CVT automatic gears in cars, which don't have separate gears, but one long gear, created by cones and a belt, so there are no clear boundaries between spaces on a cone. 

[Alan Burns]

You can see what a blow to some people's egotism this is.   What?  I'm just molecules and stuff? 

But it is not just a question of ego, it is a matter of possibility.  Can you really accept that a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness?  The truth is that science is no nearer to explaining what defines perception than it was forty years ago.  Chemical activity is just what it is - there is nothing emerging from it. There is no materialistic way of generating conscious perception.

[Shaker]

But it is not just a question of ego

It pretty obviously is, Alan. Your desperate insistence that "We're so much more!" and all special little snowflakes betrays this.

Can you really accept that a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness? The truth is that science is no nearer to explaining what defines perception than it was forty years ago. Chemical activity is just what it is - there is nothing emerging from it. There is no materialistic way of generating conscious perception.

Why is it that to everybody else that says: "There's a gap in our current understanding - we'd better keep working on it until we get a clearer picture. If it takes forty years or forty decades, so be it", whereas to you it says: "There's a gap in our current understanding - quick, plug it with God and souls"? You couldn't get a more classic example of God-of-the-gaps-ism than that.

The problem for you and those of like mind is that science has a rather good track record of filling gaps with facts. Science is no nearer to defining perception than forty years ago, you claim (which as others have pointed out is pretty well when any creative and constructive thought on the matter ceased for you). Can you keep a straight face and claim that it can never do so, ever? Beware the history of scientific gap-filling, Alan - it leaves you increasingly little territory to plant your flag in.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

But it is not just a question of ego, it is a matter of possibility.  Can you really accept that a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness?  The truth is that science is no nearer to explaining what defines perception than it was forty years ago.  Chemical activity is just what it is - there is nothing emerging from it. There is no materialistic way of generating conscious perception.

Oi,

Did you get chance to forward my letter yet.

TTFN

Stephen

[Alan Burns]

Why is it that to everybody else that says ...

argumentum ad populum

Can you keep a straight face and claim that it can never do so, ever?

A big firm yes

Why not just rejoice in the news that you are so much more than a flow of electrons?
You indeed have a soul! 

[Shaker]

argumentum ad populum

No Alan. Remember that that particular fallacy always builds its pseudo-case on a "Because ..." somewhere along the line - specifically that something is true, or even merely worth taking seriously, because a lot of people believe it. This is such a whopping fallacy, so obviously false, that it's hard to believe that anybody could still trundle it out ... yet they do. What I referred to was the scientific approach, basically, which is to keep looking, keep enquiring, keep asking questions of the world, keep gathering data and testing hypotheses and never stop - something that by your own admission you gave up on forty years ago in favour of the off-the-peg cosmic Polyfilla that you've been harping on ever since.

a big firm yes

Then you're an even bigger clown than I took you for, since you have absolutely no warrant whatever for such absolutism. It puts you in the same league of clowns who confidently and equally dogmatically declared that heavier-than-air flight was impossible, or that putting human beings on the moon was impossible, or who declined to sign up four youngsters from Liverpool on the grounds that guitar-led bands had had their day.

Why not just rejoice in the news that you are so much more than a flow of electrons?

It's not news because I haven't been furnished with any reason to think it true - and some of us do like reasons for what we provisionally take as true. Everything you reel out comes across to me as a rather childish fantasy clung on to only by the fearful and the invincibly credulous.

You indeed have a soul! 

I have consciousness, personality, character if that's what you mean, but they're expressions of brain function which will die when I do.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Shaker,
So many words but nothing worth reading.  Your brain functioning is dimming.

[Shaker]

As though somebody whose entire posting history consists of monkey sitting on a rock, snork and too funny you would know.

[Stranger]

But it is not just a question of ego, it is a matter of possibility.  Can you really accept that a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness? 

Why not?

There is no materialistic way of generating conscious perception.

Another baseless assertion - you need to provide some evidence or logical reasoning if you are going to convince. You also need to understand that you are not providing an alternative. Saying it's a non-material soul is just giving up on ever explaining it and saying (effectively) "I dunno, it must be magic".

[Leonard James]

As though somebody whose entire posting history consists of monkey sitting on a rock, snork and too funny you would know.

Glad I'm not the only one who notices these repeated and boring, juvenile expressions.

[Alan Burns]

Oi,

Did you get chance to forward my letter yet.

TTFN

Stephen

His response:
Dear Stephen,

You may not know me,
but I know everything about you.
Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up.
Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways.
Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.
Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image.
Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being.
Acts 17:28
For you are my offspring.
Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived.
Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation.
Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake,
for all your days are written in my book.
Psalm 139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth
and where you would live.
Acts 17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother's womb.
Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born.
Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented
by those who don't know me.
John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry,
but am the complete expression of love.
1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.
1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child
and I am your Father.
1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could.
Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father.
Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.
James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.
Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love.
Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless
as the sand on the seashore.
Psalms 139:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing.
Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you.
Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession.
Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you
with all my heart and all my soul.
Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things.
Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart,
you will find me.
Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you
the desires of your heart.
Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires.
Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you
than you could possibly imagine.
Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager.
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you
in all your troubles.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted,
I am close to you.
Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb,
I have carried you close to my heart.
Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away
every tear from your eyes.
Revelation 21:3-4
And I'll take away all the pain
you have suffered on this earth.
Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you
even as I love my son, Jesus.
John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.
John 17:26
He is the exact representation of my being.
Hebrews 1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you,
not against you.
Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate expression
of my love for you.
1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved
that I might gain your love.
Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus,
you receive me.
1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you
from my love again.
Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I'll throw the biggest party
heaven has ever seen.
Luke 15:7
I have always been Father,
and will always be Father.
Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is…
Will you be my child?
John 1:12-13
I am waiting for you.
Luke 15:11-32

Love, Your Dad
Almighty God

[torridon]

But it is not just a question of ego, it is a matter of possibility.  Can you really accept that a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness?  The truth is that science is no nearer to explaining what defines perception than it was forty years ago.  Chemical activity is just what it is - there is nothing emerging from it. There is no materialistic way of generating conscious perception.

Well as usual, you're wrong, cognitive science and neuroscience are powering ahead currently, I don't know where you get this idea that no progess is being made.

Instead of thinking 'a flow of electrons can generate conscious awareness', try to understand it thus ; 'a flow of electrons is conscious awareness', that would be slightly closer. 

We are made of flesh and blood, but in a more nuanced sense, we are information beings, information written on organic material.  Arguably this view is not a million miles from your 'souls', both concepts recognise that there is something intangible about our selves, seemingly quite apart from our physical bodies. Have you ever touched information, know what it feels like ? Since ancient times philosophers have struggled to understand that  there seems to be two entirely separate domains of stuff in the world - there are rocks and trees and cats, things you can touch and measure or build with tools; then there are ideas, feelings, thoughts, principles, fears, pains, tastes etc nobody denies that these things exist, but what are they made of if they exist ? Ancient peoples invented mythological stories to help explain our apparently dual nature, but now from a modern knowledge base we can start to recognise a truer path to reconciling these two separate domains of stuff into a single understanding, and central to that is coming to understanding that we, like all living things, are organic information processing and energy processing units.  Why do the components of conscious experience, like ideas, like vision, like hope, seem intangible, as if of zero mass ? It is because they are pure information; inner mental experience is what information feels like when we process it.

[Stranger]

His response:
...You may not know me,
but I know everything about you...

I've never understood why some Christians think that cherry-picked quotes from an old, inconsistent, and self-contradictory collection of books are going to impress anybody who doesn't share their superstition...

[Alan Burns]

I've never understood why some Christians think that cherry-picked quotes from an old, inconsistent, and self-contradictory collection of books are going to impress anybody who doesn't share their superstition...

These quotes illustrate the consistency of God's message throughout the divinely inspired words of the Bible.

[Stranger]

These quotes illustrate the consistency of God's message throughout the divinely inspired words of the Bible.

Along with those that order genocide, like 1 Samuel 15:3 (just one example)...?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Dear God,

Actually I have a wonderful father. He has always been here for me, providing and advising and spending time with me. Whereas, you think that the best way to get in touch is through Alan Burns whose ability to reason could not talk me into getting out a bed if it was on fire.

Anyway back to my original point that was apparently you want to forgive me for something. Well OK then if it makes you happy but it would be good to know what it was I did that requires forgiving.

Cheers,

Stephen