Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Interesting.  In the case of (1) At what order of magnitude does awareness arise?  Does a foetus, for instance, possess sufficient complexity to be aware?
In the case of (2)Does this centre of gravity collapse when information ceases to flow?  Is it a special centre of gravity or is it like the earth's centre of gravity, which doesn't seem to depend upon a complex information flow or electrons?

In 1/, does an earthworm have sufficient complexity to be aware ? I think in terms of degrees of awareness, not an either/or, which owes at its most basic level to elementary laws of fundamental physics which describe ways in which all matter communicates with all other matter at the level of elementary particles, such forms of communication rising in complexity corresponding to the complexity of arrangement of matter, such that the peak awareness produced in mammalian brains is communication/awareness in its richest known form.

As for 2/ yes it all collapses permanently upon ceasing of brain function, ie death.  But we don't need to wait for death to experience the collapse of personhood, it evaporates every night when we to go to sleep, only to crank back into operation again the next morning.

[wigginhall]

And personhood collapses with severe dementia. 

[Alan Burns]

I'll ask again, what evidence, reasoning or anything at all do you have to support the existence of your god...?

The overwhelming evidence for God's existence is the fact that I am aware of my own existence.

Awareness is not an internal thing.  Any awareness is perceived from outside the subject of the awareness.  My brain cells are like the pixels on a computer screen.  They do not perceive themselves, they only make sense when perceived collectively by something external to them.  The source of my awareness, and its ability to interact with this physical universe is for me the evidence of God's awareness and His ability to interact.

[wigginhall]

The overwhelming evidence for God's existence is the fact that I am aware of my own existence.

Awareness is not an internal thing.  Any awareness is perceived from outside the subject of the awareness.  My brain cells are like the pixels on a computer screen.  They do not perceive themselves, they only make sense when perceived collectively by something external to them.  The source of my awareness, and its ability to interact with this physical universe is for me the evidence of God's awareness and His ability to interact.

How do you know the bit in bold?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

To answer this, you need to ask yourself:
What is knowledge?
How can it exist?
What does it physically comprise of?
Where does it emanate from?

All to do do with the brain and how it see's and interacts with the world. I don't know the details but it is obviously all connected.

Just because we don't no everything does not give you the right to just insert God.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

It's clear.

So everything is fine then?

I take it everything is fine then?

You have the hotline to God so I await the response.

[Stranger]

The overwhelming evidence for God's existence is the fact that I am aware of my own existence.

Awareness is not an internal thing.  Any awareness is perceived from outside the subject of the awareness.  My brain cells are like the pixels on a computer screen.  They do not perceive themselves, they only make sense when perceived collectively by something external to them.  The source of my awareness, and its ability to interact with this physical universe is for me the evidence of God's awareness and His ability to interact.

Another stream of baseless assertions. Do you even understand what evidence and reasoning are?

[Gordon]

The overwhelming evidence for God's existence is the fact that I am aware of my own existence.

Wrong - that is a true for you statement that isn't true for me too. As such it is just evidence of what you think.

Awareness is not an internal thing.

It is: it is a mental process in your brain.

Any awareness is perceived from outside the subject of the awareness.  My brain cells are like the pixels on a computer screen.  They do not perceive themselves, they only make sense when perceived collectively by something external to them.  The source of my awareness, and its ability to interact with this physical universe is for me the evidence of God's awareness and His ability to interact.

That, Alan, is your personal attempt to make your faith seem rational, but your thinking is so fallacy-laden that you are, ironically, the most extreme example of irrationality I've come across to date.

[wigginhall]

The strange thing is that Alan's arguments (well, loosely called arguments), must discredit Christianity and theism in general?   If they produce shoddy stuff like this, what the hell?   Anyway, that is the basis of my theory that Alan is an atheist mole.

[SusanDoris]

If you can smell burning rubber, in a virtual sort of way, it's because the Assertatron is now working flat out, pumping out unsupported statements by the gallon.   Alert! Alert!  The soul is, God is, heaven is, all because I say so!  Alert! Alert!

Oh, thank you for a post that made me smile!! AB's posts get sillier and sillier, but it is a pleasure to read all the intervening sensible ones.

If only he would at least not use the preposition 'of' with 'comprises'...

[ekim]

As for 2/ yes it all collapses permanently upon ceasing of brain function, ie death.  But we don't need to wait for death to experience the collapse of personhood, it evaporates every night when we to go to sleep, only to crank back into operation again the next morning.

Is it a collapse of personhood or just a disconnection of consciousness from the concept of 'self' as in, say, deep dreamless sleep.  In dreams there is conscious awareness of other mental forms and forces.  In meditation there is, for want of a better expression, a centre of awareness which is disconnected from all mental forms and forces including what constitutes the self.  Complexity gives way to simplicity.

[Gordon]

Alan's take on this reminds me of a line in the Pink Floyd song 'Brain Damage', from 'Dark Side of the Moon' when Mr Walters (I think) sings the line 'There's someone in my head but it's not me'.

It is just you, Alan, so perhaps this would be a good time to start getting used to the idea!

[wigginhall]

Going back to worms, they have a certain awareness, for example, of light, different types of soil, they can move in a certain direction, and avoid attack.   But Alan is saying that brains can't produce awareness, only souls, so how does the worm do this? 

I suppose Alan is saying that humans have a special awareness, quite different from worms' awareness.  But we might surmise that as nervous systems (and brains) evolve, so does awareness?   We can think of the eye evolving, and thus, the nature of vision.

[Alan Burns]

Another stream of baseless assertions. Do you even understand what evidence and reasoning are?

It is not possible to show concrete evidence for supernatural phenomena.  All I can do is offer possibilities and likelihoods to help you discover the truth.

[Nearly Sane]

It is not possible to show concrete evidence for supernatural phenomena.  All I can do is offer possibilities and likelihoods to help you discover the truth.

Probability is based in concrete evidence, so that won't work.

[Alan Burns]

Going back to worms, they have a certain awareness, for example, of light, different types of soil, they can move in a certain direction, and avoid attack.   But Alan is saying that brains can't produce awareness, only souls, so how does the worm do this? 

You are confusing awareness with reaction.  Observed behaviour patterns do not imply awareness.

[Nearly Sane]

You are confusing awareness with reaction.  Observed behaviour patterns do not imply awareness.

Possibly because you use language so badly. I think you might want to split awareness from self awareness here. No need to thank me, just write more clearly.

[Sebastian Toe]

This universe will eventually burn out and then slowly evaporate into radiation.

Heaven is eternal.

Is that a yes or a no?

[Shaker]

It is not possible to show concrete evidence for supernatural phenomena.  All I can do is offer possibilities and likelihoods to help you discover the truth.

Miserable and dismal failure, then.

[Shaker]

Going back to worms, they have a certain awareness, for example, of light, different types of soil, they can move in a certain direction, and avoid attack.   But Alan is saying that brains can't produce awareness, only souls, so how does the worm do this? 

I suppose Alan is saying that humans have a special awareness, quite different from worms' awareness.  But we might surmise that as nervous systems (and brains) evolve, so does awareness?   We can think of the eye evolving, and thus, the nature of vision.

Alan is falling victim to what Richard Dawkins called the tyranny of the discontinuous mind - in other words, essentially, essentialism - which holds that there are rigid categories of things separated by hard and fast lines that can't be crossed. Of course, back on planet reality we look at the world and see that things such as consciousness, biological species and the like are matters of continuity, of spectra, of gradual transition from one thing to another thing by incremental intermediary steps. With paint you can get from pure white to jet black by the addition of minuscule amounts of black to the white, creating a full span from one colour to another. Look at the start and end points and you see only black and white, but in between there's a massive set of infinitesimally small changes, each one practically indistinguishable from the one before and the one after.

[Alan Burns]

Look at the start and end points and you see only black and white, but in between there's a massive set of infinitesimally small changes, each one practically indistinguishable from the one before and the one after.

Even a 3 year old child can distinguish the marked differences between animal behaviour and humans.

[Shaker]

Even a 3 year old child can distinguish the marked differences between animal behaviour and humans.

Humans are animals - I assume you mean non-human animals.

What does the average 3 year old know of the fact of the unity of all life on earth which science has revealed to us? I would accept a 3 year old's word on the matter of cartoons on the telly; on biological evolution, not so much.

[Alan Burns]

All to do do with the brain and how it sees and interacts with the world. I don't know the details but it is obviously all connected.

Just because we don't know everything does not give you the right to just insert God.

The key word here is interacts.  To interact, the brain needs the freedom to exert its own will.  But this is not possible in a deterministic world where it can only react.

[Nearly Sane]

Even a 3 year old child can distinguish the marked differences between animal behaviour and humans.

Can you find your 3 year old child and ask it to help you out, because you haven't managed to cover any?

[Nearly Sane]

The key word here is interacts.  To interact, the brain needs the freedom to exert its own will.  But this is not possible in a deterministic world where it can only react.

How would you know it wasn't possible? Oh that's right your personal incredulity. I'm hoping this 3 year old who is going to help you out on the difference between humans and other animals will help you out with your basic logical fallacies too.