Searching for GOD...

[Bubbles]

Tell me why despite man advances in thinking nothing has changed?
People still die of diseases. Man is still dying of starvation. Children drinking dirty water which makes them sick.
Remind me of the forward thinking and educated nations in the world and tell me why the above still exists.
Mans forward thinking and educated nations and still half the world is still starving and suffering.

The 700 club and other Christian organisations are feeding and helping the poverty stricken corners of the world.
Seems the people of the JU JU Man the name you give as mockary of YHWH at least show their forward thinking and educated people/nations are actually doing something which eases the suffering of others.

By comparison the advances by man are lacking when it comes to the advances of the people of God.

So those who have no belief are lacking in their humanitarianism.

Things have changed, for some.

Our government supplies quite a bit of aid to impoverished countries and there are many non religious organisations like the Red Cross and Lions international who do a lot to provide fresh water and help.

Also a lot of aid by non religious groups has gone to make sure children are enoculated from killer diseases.


Some of the poorest people  are from religious nations.

Countries in the western world are now freer from religion than they have ever been, and more is being done to help abroad now, because of it.

[Brownie]

Rose: Countries in the western world are now freer from religion than they have ever been, and more is being done to help abroad now, because of it.

I didn't know that but am glad to hear it.  I think the Red Cross is wonderful and will always support the organisation.
Religious organisations such as CAFOD and the Tear Fund are very good though - we mustn't forget that there are non-Christian but religious organisations that do a lot of good work too.  We don't hear so much about them over here but in local corner shops I've seen collection boxes for Hindu organisations, for blind and children, etc, and sponsored a lady from my post office years ago who did a long hill climb in aid of such for handicapped children.

In the past I often felt that Christian organisations proselytised whilst giving aid and I didn't think that was right.  If you are going to help, help because you want to be useful and not with any other agenda.  It's less common now. 

[ippy]

Tell me why despite man advances in thinking nothing has changed?
People still die of diseases. Man is still dying of starvation. Children drinking dirty water which makes them sick.
Remind me of the forward thinking and educated nations in the world and tell me why the above still exists.
Mans forward thinking and educated nations and still half the world is still starving and suffering.

The 700 club and other Christian organisations are feeding and helping the poverty stricken corners of the world.
Seems the people of the JU JU Man the name you give as mockary of YHWH at least show their forward thinking and educated people/nations are actually doing something which eases the suffering of others.

By comparison the advances by man are lacking when it comes to the advances of the people of God.

So those who have no belief are lacking in their humanitarianism.

Well Sass it's your lot that's in decline overall, exponential here in the UK, you don't get the comparison of believing about the Ju Ju man in the sky, use whatever name you like, there is just as likely to be a Ju Ju man in the sky as there is this god thing you keep referring to.

It's all man made ideas, why do you let yourselves be taken in so readily, like I said apart from the social side what difference would it make if you dumped it, very little I would guess.

ippy

[ippy]

Rose: Countries in the western world are now freer from religion than they have ever been, and more is being done to help abroad now, because of it.

I didn't know that but am glad to hear it.  I think the Red Cross is wonderful and will always support the organisation.
Religious organisations such as CAFOD and the Tear Fund are very good though - we mustn't forget that there are non-Christian but religious organisations that do a lot of good work too.  We don't hear so much about them over here but in local corner shops I've seen collection boxes for Hindu organisations, for blind and children, etc, and sponsored a lady from my post office years ago who did a long hill climb in aid of such for handicapped children.

In the past I often felt that Christian organisations proselytised whilst giving aid and I didn't think that was right.  If you are going to help, help because you want to be useful and not with any other agenda.  It's less common now.

Christian aid is one of the most efficient charities so the B H A says and recommends it too.

ippy

[Bubbles]

Christian aid is one of the most efficient charities so the B H A says and recommends it too.

ippy

Yes Christian aid is one of the good ones IMO.

 . I don't disagree with the bha there 

[Alan Burns]

My example was of encountering jazz music and then considering the likely source of this - so I'd say that, and contrary to what you seem to suggest, that my awareness (that there is music being played that fits the category of 'jazz') involves both stimuli (my auditory systems are being stimulated by an external source) and my reaction to this stimuli (I have come to some mental conclusions about what it is I am hearing).

But you seem to have missed the most fascinating bit.  In between the physical stimuli and the reaction to it there is the actual perception of the music.  I have to maintain that perception is a spiritual experience which goes beyond mere chemical activity.

[Brownie]

Perception is a brain activity as far as I know, or closely linked to brain activity.  We perceive through our senses and the brain interprets.

[Sebastian Toe]

Is our 'spiritual home' part of this universe?

This universe will eventually burn out and then slowly evaporate into radiation.

Heaven is eternal.

I'm confused by your response, is that a yes or a no?

[Gordon]

But you seem to have missed the most fascinating bit.  In between the physical stimuli and the reaction to it there is the actual perception of the music.  I have to maintain that perception is a spiritual experience which goes beyond mere chemical activity.

That you 'have to maintain' is in essence the reason why your reasoning is so poor, Alan: you have simply contrived your own narrative so as to create your very own gap, in which to insert your spurious god/soul claim.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why wouldn't he be? As an evolutionary biologist it's pretty much one of the cornerstones of his particular field.The irony.

This is what Dawkins wrote for Edge isn't it and what he would retire from science.
He is no holistic. He wrote what he did in order to make excuse for his past and future gross category errors which would of course not be possible if categories ceased to exist.

There is a long tradition of covering up the doctors howlers with Gambits like claiming The courtiers reply AKA The myers shuffle which was set up to excuse the Doctors ignorance of Religion.

It's flannel Shakes.

[Shaker]

This is what Dawkins wrote for Edge isn't it and what he would retire from science.

News to me. Not that where an article appears should make any difference to anything, but I first saw the article ('Gaps in the Mind') in A Devil's Chaplain, where it had been reprinted from The Great Ape Project edited by Peter Singer and Paola Cavalieri.

He is no holistic.

So what? 'Holistic' tends to be one of those unfortunate words - 'quantum' is another one - whose frequent misuse to conceal the lack of any rigorous and meaningful content tends to make my bullshit alarm go off.

He wrote what he did in order to make excuse for his past and future gross category errors which would of course not be possible if categories ceased to exist.

Your evidence for this assertion is what? What are his "category errors" from the past? What will be his "category errors" in the future, Septic Peg? Do you know what a category error is?

There is a long tradition of covering up the doctors howlers with Gambits like claiming The courtiers reply AKA The myers shuffle which was set up to excuse the Doctors ignorance of Religion.

Except that of course his position is that there's nothing to know (as in, items of knowledge).

It's flannel Shakes.

No it isn't - it describes a very well-known but no less unfortunate feature of the minds of the rationally deprived. That you see it at work in, for example, Alan Burns on an almost daily basis demonstrates that it's anything but flannel.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

News to me. Not that where an article appears should make any difference to anything, but I first saw the article ('Gaps in the Mind') in A Devil's Chaplain, where it had been reprinted from The Great Ape Project edited by Peter Singer and Paola Cavalieri. 
So what? 'Holistic' tends to be one of those unfortunate words - 'quantum' is another one - whose frequent misuse to conceal the lack of any rigorous and meaningful content tends to make my bullshit alarm go off. Your evidence for this assertion is what? What are his "category errors" from the past? What will be his "category errors" in the future, Septic Peg? Do you know what a category error is? Except that of course his position is that there's nothing to know (as in, items of knowledge). No it isn't - it describes a very well-known but no less unfortunate feature of the minds of the rationally deprived. That you see it at work in, for example, Alan Burns on an almost daily basis demonstrates that it's anything but flannel.

I am not waving the flag here for holism and neither does Dawkins.His anti essentialism is a blind.
Dawkins category errors in future are those which have sustained his shtick in the past. Scientism and science,atheism and science, belief and knowledge, leprechauns and God etc.

[Stranger]

I am not waving the flag here for holism and neither does Dawkins.His anti essentialism is a blind.
Dawkins category errors in future are those which have sustained his shtick in the past. Scientism and science,atheism and science, belief and knowledge, leprechauns and God etc.

How about you stop the trying to impress with jargon BS and actually say what you think is wrong with the original point that was made. Here it is, in case you forgot...

Alan is falling victim to what Richard Dawkins called the tyranny of the discontinuous mind - in other words, essentially, essentialism - which holds that there are rigid categories of things separated by hard and fast lines that can't be crossed. Of course, back on planet reality we look at the world and see that things such as consciousness, biological species and the like are matters of continuity, of spectra, of gradual transition from one thing to another thing by incremental intermediary steps. With paint you can get from pure white to jet black by the addition of minuscule amounts of black to the white, creating a full span from one colour to another. Look at the start and end points and you see only black and white, but in between there's a massive set of infinitesimally small changes, each one practically indistinguishable from the one before and the one after.

[Alan Burns]

I just wanted to share today's Lent reflection from Bishop Robert Barron:

Lent Day 36
Flowering in the Desert

People who live in the desert speak of the flowering of the desert that takes place practically overnight.

Often we are forced to go through desert times where there doesn’t seem to be any possibility of flowering. Religiously intentional people will do so purposely and consciously, but most people are drawn through it quite against their will.

I knew a woman who endured a terrible depression. Depression is something of an epidemic in our country. There are all sorts of reasons for it: physiological, psychological, experiential, spiritual—but however it is produced, it is awful.

This woman was in that sort of state for an extended period of time. She came to see me and asked what it could possibly mean. I encouraged her to read the great desert texts of the Bible, especially Isaiah, that tell us flowers bloom precisely in the desert.

In time, and after much study, she became a therapist and now helps to guide others through their deserts.

The apostle James also talks about waiting for new life to spring forth: “Be patient, my brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer awaits the precious yield of the soil. He looks forward to it patiently while the soil receives the winter and the spring rains” (James 5:7).

There is so much packed into that image. The farmer watches the plants and crops grow, but he doesn’t fully grasp how this happens. The gestation takes place silently and in secret, below the ground. There is a time when a beautiful plant, exultant in the sun, is nothing more than a seed, buried under a foot of earth. There’s nothing beautiful about it, nothing impressive when it is buried in the earth.

So too are we during our desert periods.

What is the worst thing that a farmer could do? Pick at the plant impatiently, trying to hurry its growth. It takes just as much time as it takes. And what else is required? Winter and spring rains. What is more obnoxious, more disagreeable than winter rain? But without it, there will be no growth.

So the depressions, setbacks, failures, sufferings of our lives are like winter rains.

Do we trust in the work of the divine cultivator?

[Gordon]

I just wanted to share today's Lent reflection from Bishop Robert Barron:

Alan

Since you have chosen to post this here and not on FSA do you not think that it is little more than twee and simplistic waffle?

More worryingly it is misleading since it implies that bible study can resolve depression (one hopes that psychiatrists everywhere get their 'free copy' too), and also that there is something profound about what farmers (and home gardeners) routinely do: grow crops/plants and don't harvest/pick them until they are ready.

It has all the profundity of 'Topsy and Tim go Shopping with Mummy'. 

[Alan Burns]

Alan

Since you have chosen to post this here and not on FSA do you not think that it is little more than twee and simplistic waffle?

More worryingly it is misleading since it implies that bible study can resolve depression (one hopes that psychiatrists everywhere get their 'free copy' too), and also that there is something profound about what farmers (and home gardeners) routinely do: grow crops/plants and don't harvest/pick them until they are ready.

It has all the profundity of 'Topsy and Tim go Shopping with Mummy'.

I understand what you are saying Gordon, but I do feel that this message may well offer some profound help to some members of this forum - not necessarily those who read the FSA.  People can ignore it if they wish, but I would hope that as many as possible will read it.

[Shaker]

I understand what you are saying Gordon

Know what? I very much doubt it.

[Brownie]

I read it Alan.  Thank you.  The title of this thread is, ''Searching for God'' so in my view, what you posted is highly appropriate.  As you say, no-one has to read it.  Have you read any of Thomas Merton's books?  'Bread in the Wilderness' springs to mind.

I will now go and find out what FSA is  , something which no doubt has been right in front of my eyes all along.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

What is more obnoxious, more disagreeable than winter rain? But without it, there will be no growth.

So the depressions, setbacks, failures, sufferings of our lives are like winter rains.

Do we trust in the work of the divine cultivator?

[/i]
[/quote]

Well my depression very very nearly killed me. If that is the price of growing I would rather remain stationary thank you.

[Brownie]

Bless you (((Stephen))), from someone who has been there and is very often there to some extent, who acknowledges that she may be there in entirety, again, though I sincerely hope not.  People without that experience cannot understand.  I do, though, recognise that, though I empathise, my experience is different to yours because you are an individual.  There's nothing more patronising than people thinking they know it all because they have had similar (even worse when it is someone's cousin's in-law who has had similar!).
So in short I sympathise and understand how you feel up to a point.  No pressure from me!

[Maeght]

I just wanted to share today's Lent reflection from Bishop Robert Barron:

Lent Day 36
Flowering in the Desert

People who live in the desert speak of the flowering of the desert that takes place practically overnight.

Often we are forced to go through desert times where there doesn’t seem to be any possibility of flowering. Religiously intentional people will do so purposely and consciously, but most people are drawn through it quite against their will.

I knew a woman who endured a terrible depression. Depression is something of an epidemic in our country. There are all sorts of reasons for it: physiological, psychological, experiential, spiritual—but however it is produced, it is awful.

This woman was in that sort of state for an extended period of time. She came to see me and asked what it could possibly mean. I encouraged her to read the great desert texts of the Bible, especially Isaiah, that tell us flowers bloom precisely in the desert.

In time, and after much study, she became a therapist and now helps to guide others through their deserts.

The apostle James also talks about waiting for new life to spring forth: “Be patient, my brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer awaits the precious yield of the soil. He looks forward to it patiently while the soil receives the winter and the spring rains” (James 5:7).

There is so much packed into that image. The farmer watches the plants and crops grow, but he doesn’t fully grasp how this happens. The gestation takes place silently and in secret, below the ground. There is a time when a beautiful plant, exultant in the sun, is nothing more than a seed, buried under a foot of earth. There’s nothing beautiful about it, nothing impressive when it is buried in the earth.

So too are we during our desert periods.

What is the worst thing that a farmer could do? Pick at the plant impatiently, trying to hurry its growth. It takes just as much time as it takes. And what else is required? Winter and spring rains. What is more obnoxious, more disagreeable than winter rain? But without it, there will be no growth.

So the depressions, setbacks, failures, sufferings of our lives are like winter rains.

Do we trust in the work of the divine cultivator?

Twee and simplistic waffle sums it up nicely.

[wigginhall]

What is more obnoxious, more disagreeable than winter rain? But without it, there will be no growth.

So the depressions, setbacks, failures, sufferings of our lives are like winter rains.

Do we trust in the work of the divine cultivator?

[/i]


Well my depression very very nearly killed me. If that is the price of growing I would rather remain stationary thank you.

I certainly would not recommend a depressed person to read the Bible as a cure.   Of course, some depressed people may find comfort in religion, but I doubt if it offers a long-term solution.   In any case, no professional could talk in that way.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Bless you (((Stephen))), from someone who has been there and is very often there to some extent, who acknowledges that she may be there in entirety, again, though I sincerely hope not.  People without that experience cannot understand.  I do, though, recognise that, though I empathise, my experience is different to yours because you are an individual.  There's nothing more patronising than people thinking they know it all because they have had similar (even worse when it is someone's cousin's in-law who has had similar!).
So in short I sympathise and understand how you feel up to a point.  No pressure from me!

Thank you and I hope that you stay well.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How about you stop the trying to impress with jargon BS and actually say what you think is wrong with the original point that was made. Here it is, in case you forgot...

Science depends on hard and fast definitions.
Dawkins suggesting that we can be flexible with science is merely an appeal to allow his category confusion and to reinforce his overlapping magisterial Schlick.
It also makes an appeal for linguistic piracy and scientific imperialism.
If Dawkins is against essentialist tendencies in science you can bet they are there for a good reason.

[Stranger]

How about you stop the trying to impress with jargon BS and actually say what you think is wrong with the original point that was made. Here it is, in case you forgot...

Science depends on hard and fast definitions.
Dawkins suggesting that we can be flexible with science is merely an appeal to allow his category confusion and to reinforce his overlapping magisterial Schlick.
It also makes an appeal for linguistic piracy and scientific imperialism.
If Dawkins is against essentialist tendencies in science you can bet they are there for a good reason.

That will be a 'no' then...