Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

So why does that not translate into anger at God for his hiding from other people ?

My anger is certainly aimed at the one who does the hiding, but it is not God.

[Rhiannon]

As you have already pointed out, he was a good bloke though. There's a guy I meet sometimes I'm the pub who has built a scale model of the Stonehenge out of nasal hair, always stands his round though.

His own nasal hair or that of others? Because I'm sure there's something in Leviticus about not mixing fibres.

[Rhiannon]

My anger is certainly aimed at the one who does the hiding, but it is not God.

So you're pissed off with Hope too then.

[Stranger]

My anger is certainly aimed at the one who does the hiding, but it is not God.

If an omnipotent god wanted to make its presence known to us, then nothing could stop it and it could make absolutely sure the message was totally clear and unambiguous.

I'm waiting.........

[Sassy]

Now we are getting closer to what this topic is perhaps about.  If we take the Christian Creed as the template for what it is to be a Christian believer then you are right about belief in the resurrection as being part of the Christian faith.  Belief implies that you do not know whether it is the truth.  If a person knows the truth then they no longer need to declare themselves as a believer.  If the truth is personal to them and they wish to communicate it to others then they either need to demonstrate it or indicate a method by which others may demonstrate it to themselves, so that they can distinguish truth from delusion or conditioning.  If you claim this: "This puts me in a far secure position of it being truth than you who won't even do what it takes to find out for yourself." then you should be able to describe 'what it takes' to ippy so that if he or others are interested then they can follow the method for converting belief into truth.

No one needs to describe it; it is there in the bible for all to read and to follow.
It isn't something new which I am revealing. But if you and Ippy had read the bible seeking the truth then you would not be asking me how to do it.
It is part of Christs teachings. Just as this:-

King James Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Is from the Letter to the Romans. Note it says confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

But if you study the words of Christ, you will see the way I talk about.

[Sassy]

Sass, the only trouble with your pov is that all of that stuff is so unlikely to have ever happened especially the magical, mystical and superstition based parts where it's even less likely to have ever happened than all of the rest of it and that lot's suspect enough.

It doesn't put you or me in any differing position other than you waste a lot of time dealing with some highly suspect unlikely belief, highly suspect whether it's true or not, where as I'm free to not waste my time on nonsense, other than trying to show you and others the errors of their ways, which I think is extremely altruistic of me.

ippy

Of course we are different positions because Christ tells us how to know him and the Father, personally.
The true difference is I WANTED to know the truth and you didn't. That is why you yourself have never read the bible and so found the way to God through Christ. You never wanted to know the truth and still do not.

[Sassy]

However clever any theologian thinks he or she is, not one of them knows, actually knows anything about any god.
I wonder if any of them has ever tried to produce a definition of the Christian God!!

JESUS CHRIST the greatest theologian since Abraham and Moses. They never claimed to be clever but they did claim to know God. I think Christ actually revealed the true God and the love he had for mankind.  Are you sure you want to make such a statement in the light of the evidence, Susan?

[Stranger]

But if you and Ippy had read the bible seeking the truth then you would not be asking me how to do it.

I read the bible to find out what it said, which I thought a reasonable approach - what I found was a confused, incoherent and often self-contradictory text.

Sure, if reading "seeking the truth" means reading it to find all the bits that confirm what you already 'know' and glossing over the rest, then of course, you will find your confirmation.

The idea that the bible contains a clear, unambiguous message is laughable.

[Sassy]

If an omnipotent god wanted to make its presence known to us, then nothing could stop it and it could make absolutely sure the message was totally clear and unambiguous.

I'm waiting.........

I see where Floo get's it from....
If God sent his son who performed miracles for over three years then was killed and rose from the dead, and you don't believe then I suggest even if Christ appeared before you that you would find an excuse not to believe.

Only you know personally what you would need to believe. But the truth is you don't need anything because you do not want to believe, even if true.

That is why you are still....Just waiting....

[SusanDoris]

His own nasal hair or that of others? Because I'm sure there's something in Leviticus about not mixing fibres.

Good one, Rhiannon!! :D

[Alan Burns]

If an omnipotent god wanted to make its presence known to us, then nothing could stop it and it could make absolutely sure the message was totally clear and unambiguous.

I'm waiting.........

You appear to be waiting for the second coming of Jesus in all His Glory.  But are you aware that by then it will be too late to be saved?

[Stranger]

You appear to be waiting for the second coming of Jesus in all His Glory.  But are you aware that by then it will be too late to be saved?

No.

I have had no unambiguous communication from any god - just the babble of lots of believers - such as yourself, waving their self-contradictory books and all claiming (without the first hint of any evidence) that they have a message from god.

If they all had the same message, it might carry some weight, but they don't.

If this is an attempt by a god to communicate with me, then said god has a terrible communication problem or really doesn't care about getting its message out.

[edited for typos]

[torridon]

My anger is certainly aimed at the one who does the hiding, but it is not God.

But it is God that created the Devil and it is God that is till this day continuing to allow him to persist. It is God that is ultimately responsible, so why don't you plead with God to eliminate the Devil ?

[torridon]

You appear to be waiting for the second coming of Jesus in all His Glory.  But are you aware that by then it will be too late to be saved?

Not if God is good. A good God will do best by everybody, not just the select few.

[Shaker]

Yep, just like that Shakespeare really should have reduced his work as well. All those plays, and poetry too when he could just have scribbled 'I love you, you love me, other people smell of poo and wee'

Generations of schoolchildren would have been for ever in his debt if he had.

[Alan Burns]

Not if God is good. A good God will do best by everybody, not just the select few.

No doubt we all have ideas about what a "good God" would or would not do.  But the reality is not as simple as we would like it to be.  The reality I perceive is that humanity needs to be saved from evil, and this will be fulfilled by accepting Jesus as our saviour.

[torridon]

No doubt we all have ideas about what a "good God" would or would not do.  But the reality is not as simple as we would like it to be.  The reality I perceive is that humanity needs to be saved from evil, and this will be fulfilled by accepting Jesus as our saviour.

No need to indulge your contorted logic really. A good God would not create evil in the first place. A good God would eliminate it.  Breathtakingly simple really.  Your thinking is just self contradictory, and therefore wrong.

[ekim]

No one needs to describe it; it is there in the bible for all to read and to follow.
It isn't something new which I am revealing. But if you and Ippy had read the bible seeking the truth then you would not be asking me how to do it.
It is part of Christs teachings. Just as this:-  Is from the Letter to the Romans. Note it says confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

But if you study the words of Christ, you will see the way I talk about.

Some observations on your post:
1.  This is a discussion group rather than a Bible study group.  Just saying 'Read the Bible' doesn't advance the discussion or your reason for partaking in it.
2.   You quote from Paul who was just a believer himself and, as far as we can tell, not even an eye witness to the resurrection, so why should anybody believe him anymore than you.
3.   You have claimed that you are in a better position of knowing the truth and so it should be easy for you to summarise from the words of Jesus his method for knowing the truth as opposed to just believing what has been written in scripture.

[ippy]

And I feel great sadness for people who have not experienced the indescribable joy of discovering God's love.

No I haven't experienced indescribable self deception yet, luckily for me I have the sort of realisticly minded  family around me that wouldn't leave things for very long, if they thought I was in the throws of some sort of mainia or another.

Shame there dosen't seem to be any similar sort help for you Alan; still if the indoctrinators do a good job, those indoctrinated don't think they have been indoctrinated, they just don't even realise, Alan.

ippy

[ekim]

And I feel great sadness for people who have not experienced the indescribable joy of discovering God's love.

Joy is pretty much indescribable anyway.  What makes you attribute it to 'God's love'?  How do you experience 'great sadness' and 'indescribable joy' at the same time, or is one switched off and the other switched on?

[ippy]

Of course we are different positions because Christ tells us how to know him and the Father, personally.
The true difference is I WANTED to know the truth and you didn't. That is why you yourself have never read the bible and so found the way to God through Christ. You never wanted to know the truth and still do not.

I can understand you wanting to know the truth Sass let's hope one day you find it.

You seem to think the truth is contained in your bible, I wonder why you can't see that you need to confirm that everything in the bible is in fact the truth first before promoting it as such and you nor anyone else has been able to do that yet, if they ever will.

Now having said the above, why would there be any need to read any book as though it were based on facts untill it is established that it's based on facts?

No one has been able to estsblish your bible contains cast iron evidence that would support it as a book full of factual information? So again why not read any other book of fiction?

 Just because you accept it as a book full of facts doesn't make it a book full of facts, no matter how much you would like it to do so Sass.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

No need to indulge your contorted logic really. A good God would not create evil in the first place. A good God would eliminate it.  Breathtakingly simple really.  Your thinking is just self contradictory, and therefore wrong.

But by eliminating evil God would also take away the gift of free will, which would turn us all into puppets.  Free will gives us the ability to choose to follow God, or reject Him.  Evil is an inevitable consequence of consciously rejecting God and His love.  Many of us are victims of this evil because God's love has been hidden from us, which is why we need Jesus.

[ippy]

But by eliminating evil God would also take away the gift of free will, which would turn us all into puppets.  Free will gives us the ability to choose to follow God, or reject Him.  Evil is an inevitable consequence of consciously rejecting God and His love.  Many of us are victims of this evil because God's love has been hidden from us, which is why we need Jesus.

I don't regect your gods love Alan, there's nothing there in the first place to regect, this god stuff of yours is only in your imagination, believing something doesn't automatically make it a part of reality no matter how much you would like it to do so.

ippy
 

[torridon]

But by eliminating evil God would also take away the gift of free will, which would turn us all into puppets.  Free will gives us the ability to choose to follow God, or reject Him.  Evil is an inevitable consequence of consciously rejecting God and His love.  Many of us are victims of this evil because God's love has been hidden from us, which is why we need Jesus.

Doing your shifty routine again I see.  God could eliminate the Devil and his evil ways and still give humans free will. This is really elementary stuff.

[Shaker]

But by eliminating evil God would also take away the gift of free will, which would turn us all into puppets.

Free will being that thing you constantly harp on about all the time but have never yet once demonstrated actually exists.

Evil is an inevitable consequence of consciously rejecting God and His love.

Which if taken on its face implies that you consider atheists/atheism to be evil.

It also gives rise to any number of pertinent questions about those people who were staunch believers in a god - your brand included - who committed acts of the most Byzantine wickedness. What happened there?

Many of us are victims of this evil because God's love has been hidden from us, which is why we need Jesus.

I find that I need Jesus like Abraham Lincoln needed a hole in the head.