Searching for GOD...

[BeRational]

This meaningless theobabble is the reason and purpose behind our existence.  Removing this results in our very existence being totally meaningless.

No it's not.

It's just a mistake you made that's all.

[Sebastian Toe]

Many on this forum are quick to dismiss the personal evidence of witnesses to God's work, which implies that the witnesses are either lying or deluded.

But when the evidence is corroborated by several independent witnesses it is harder to dismiss in this way.  For example there were several independent sightings of the risen Christ.  More recently there have been many recorded witnesses to miracles.  One example is the "multiplication of food" in El Paso:
http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Amazing-Story-among-Paso-Juarez/dp/0892831502

I can play also.

Sixty children witness non-human beings and a large craft landing.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/04/08/more-than-60-school-children-witness-non-human-beings-a-large-craft-landing/

Based on your logic ie when the evidence is corroborated by several independent witnesses it is harder to dismiss.

Do you believe in aliens and spaceships visiting this planet now or will you dismiss the event?

[Shaker]

This meaningless theobabble is the reason and purpose behind our existence.

No it isn't. Not for Jews it isn't. Not for Muslims it isn't. Not for Hindus it isn't. Or Sikhs. Or Jains. Or Buddhists. Or Zoroastrians. Or pagans, let alone atheists.

Removing this results in our very existence being totally meaningless.

And yet countless people find their own meanings in life without it. Moreover, even if your assertion was true, that would not make it wrong. Undesirable to you, no doubt, but not wrong. To think so would be to commit the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy.

[SusanDoris]

Alan Burns


Explain to me why my life has no meaning.

You cannot do this, of course. Every day of my life is meaningful and appreciated - particularly so at the moment - most of the money due from the compensation claim was paid in on Friday*; my granddaughters visit me; etc.




*It's quite a modest sum in the end, but I'm satisfied.

[torridon]

Many on this forum are quick to dismiss the personal evidence of witnesses to God's work, which implies that the witnesses are either lying or deluded.

But when the evidence is corroborated by several independent witnesses it is harder to dismiss in this way.  For example there were several independent sightings of the risen Christ.  More recently there have been many recorded witnesses to miracles.  One example is the "multiplication of food" in El Paso:
http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Amazing-Story-among-Paso-Juarez/dp/0892831502

Being 'quick to dismiss' fantastic claims is probably what others would be refer to as scepticism, and its not a bad thing.  It is scepticism that is at the heart of science and it is science that has given us the modern world.  Science has learned the hard way that personal evidence is often untrustworthy because persons often have underlying agendas, persons often make mistakes, persons often have muddled minds.  Thus maybe it is a good principle to adopt - apply a sceptical attitude in the absence of objective evidence; if you are sceptical about claims of alien abductions or about alleged miracles in other faith contexts but accept the fantastic claims within your own faith uncritically then you are guilty of selection bias.  It is more honest to apply the same approach across the board.

[torridon]

Sometimes like Thomas, God acts on the knowledge and faith of our hearts. In these cases he responded to the faith of these men and the fact they had asked God to reveal himself. So you know the way Stephen. But do you really want to know for the right reasons.

A good god would not be in the business of playing hide and seek in the first place; such caprice is not consistent with being good.

[Rhiannon]

This meaningless theobabble is the reason and purpose behind our existence.  Removing this results in our very existence being totally meaningless.

I have no problem with your theobabble floating your boat. But you can't make your truth mine. In fact I found living with a truth like yours hurtful and damaging, and I'm very far from being alone in that.

I find more meaning in my life now, not least because instead of having my eyes on some distant prize that only exists in the realms of belief I'm living in the here and now, drinking it all in because there isn't a single second that I'm here that I want to waste. And I don't need to lie to myself any more, trying to fit the square peg of what I wanted God's love to look like into the round hole of the arbitrariness of suffering.

You're intelligent enough to see the way in which you contradict yourself time and again on this thread alone in order to justify your beliefs and how your God behaves. I know that leads to a huge amount of internal conflict and I for one am eternally grateful that I no longer have to live with it.

[Bubbles]

I can play also.

Sixty children witness non-human beings and a large craft landing.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/04/08/more-than-60-school-children-witness-non-human-beings-a-large-craft-landing/

Based on your logic ie when the evidence is corroborated by several independent witnesses it is harder to dismiss.

Do you believe in aliens and spaceships visiting this planet now or will you dismiss the event?

That's an interesting link.

If that actually happened and the children made it up, you would think at least one of the grown up children would have revealed the hoax by now

http://johnemackinstitute.org/2008/01/ariel-phenomenon/

I notice that James Randi educational centre below seems to spend the whole article criticising the investigators instead of explaining it, or going and looking at the evidence. They don't seem to have anything useful to add, so attack others.

http://archive.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1772-ufo-chasers.html

Not so educational then.

I was hoping for more than attacking others.

Anyone can waffle about the investigators and that they are dodgy, I thought James Randi did more than that, looking for their own evidence and presenting that, obviously not.

[Alan Burns]

You're intelligent enough to see the way in which you contradict yourself time and again on this thread alone in order to justify your beliefs and how your God behaves. I know that leads to a huge amount of internal conflict and I for one am eternally grateful that I no longer have to live with it.

I have never knowingly contradicted myself.  I may be guilty of not expressing myself very well, but there is no contradiction in what I believe to be the truth.  I find it very sad that many people do not see the ultimate purpose for which we were brought into existence.  Without it our life just becomes a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

[Stranger]

I have never knowingly contradicted myself.  I may be guilty of not expressing myself very well, but there is no contradiction in what I believe to be the truth.  I find it very sad that many people do not see the ultimate purpose for which we were brought into existence.  Without it our life just becomes a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

The problem is that you have no shred of evidence and no reasoning to support your view. Only an obvious, circular, self-fulfilling belief in answered prayer. Adding to that the massive contradiction of (your version of) the whole Christian message. A good, loving god simply wouldn't behave like that. It certainly would be playing damn stupid hide and seek games with its creation...

I find it very sad that you are trapped in this bizarre fantasy world - I really hope you manage escape.

[Bubbles]

I have never knowingly contradicted myself.  I may be guilty of not expressing myself very well, but there is no contradiction in what I believe to be the truth.  I find it very sad that many people do not see the ultimate purpose for which we were brought into existence.  Without it our life just becomes a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

We might be a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

It's a possibility.

We might not be so terribly important, as religion paints us.

However, each and every one of us can have a purpose and a meaning to our lives.

Sometimes, the very fact we are " just passing through" can give life meaning and purpose.

Don't put off till tomorrow what you can do today.......

I believe we are part of something wonderful and should strive towards being kinder and nobler. I just believe there is " something " to this idea of there being something more.

The fact we evolved from something else and are animals doesn't bother me at all.

Probably because I think the purpose of all life is to strive to reach its fullest potential.

What that is, is debatable.

Some become vegetarians for example, others don't. Some climb a mountain because it's there, others walk on the moon.
Others revolve around friends and family, or raising money for charity or both.
I think it's something you have to figure out for yourself, ultimately.

We can't all be the same, there are so many different ones that need doing 

🌹

[Shaker]

I have never knowingly contradicted myself.  I may be guilty of not expressing myself very well, but there is no contradiction in what I believe to be the truth.  I find it very sad that many people do not see the ultimate purpose for which we were brought into existence.

There's no reason to believe that there's any ultimate purpose. People don't see what you regard as the purpose of your life because they don't believe a word of it. Proximate purposes - the things we do and enjoy, that give our lives meaning so long as they last - suit me just fine. I could just as easily say that the things that make my life meaningful and purposeful should be, are true for everyone else everywhere all the time, but not being a theist I can't summon up that pitch of arrogance.

Without it our life just becomes a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

Hammering the ad consequentiam again, eh Alan?

[Rhiannon]

I have never knowingly contradicted myself.  I may be guilty of not expressing myself very well, but there is no contradiction in what I believe to be the truth.  I find it very sad that many people do not see the ultimate purpose for which we were brought into existence.  Without it our life just becomes a meaningless blip in a universe driven entirely by deterministic rules of science.

Shall we start with God comes but we have to ask first versus God looks for us?

I love my life; I have the sky above me, the earth beneath my feet, animals that I adore and people that I love and who love me. It's not always easy, and certainly not free of pain; and it will pass, as all things do, but I'm grateful for the ride. Wanting more meaning than that takes the gloss off the preciousness of it all. Why waste time looking to a heavenly future when it's right here in the now?

[Alan Burns]

Alan Burns

Explain to me why my life has no meaning.

You cannot do this, of course. Every day of my life is meaningful and appreciated - particularly so at the moment - most of the money due from the compensation claim was paid in on Friday*; my granddaughters visit me; etc.


*It's quite a modest sum in the end, but I'm satisfied.

The fact that we can perceive meaning is the key to unlock the ultimate meaning.

Atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.  The atoms and molecules in our brains and sensory organs do a wonderful job in processing information, but processing does not constitute perception.  Where lies the entity which perceives and attaches meaning to all this data held in our brains?  Can atomic particles perceive themselves?  The answer of course lies in the human soul.

[Shaker]

Of course it does

[Alan Burns]

Shall we start with God comes but we have to ask first versus God looks for us?

Yes, God certainly made Himself known to me, but I first had to open the door to let Him into my life.  The revelation of God's love was truly amazing, and the experience can aptly be described as being born again.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, God certainly made Himself known to me, but I first had to open the door to let Him into my life.  The revelation of God's love was truly amazing, and the experience can aptly be described as being born again.

I've found that it's better to love real people, Alan.

[Stranger]

The fact that we can perceive meaning is the key to unlock the ultimate meaning.

Atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.  The atoms and molecules in our brains and sensory organs do a wonderful job in processing information, but processing does not constitute perception.  Where lies the entity which perceives and attaches meaning to all this data held in our brains?  Can atomic particles perceive themselves?  The answer of course lies in the human soul.

This is a dismal non-argument, that basically amounts to: understanding how perception works is hard, so it must be magic.

[savillerow]

Msg 12524 AB I know this has been said a thousand times before but just for clarity the phrase "god certainly made himself known to me" (here we go) Did your god say something like "hello alan its me god, i want to make myself known to you" And how did you know it was god? (i know, im kicking myself already)

[Rhiannon]

If so why didn't god reveal itself to me when as a child of 11? I desperately needed a sign of its presence and that it was listening to me, but none of my sincere prayers were answered?

Because something something something Satan somethings somethings not a proper believer something something. 

[Shaker]

By jingo I think she's got it

[floo]

Because something something something Satan somethings somethings not a proper believer something something. 

Funny how many times I have been told I wasn't a proper believer, because I never had any sign that the sky fairy was there for me!

[Bubbles]

Funny how many times I have been told I wasn't a proper believer, because I never had any sign that the sky fairy was there for me!

I think it's called cognitive dissonance. 

[Shaker]

It's called the No True Scotsman fallacy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

Sky Fairy!! An evil Sky Fairy

Gonnagle.