Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

But the big question is this:
Is it scientifically determined or is it spiritually determined?

Determined is determined. Why does it matter whether it's 'spiritual' or not?

[Gordon]

But the big question is this:
Is it scientifically determined or is it spiritually determined?

How is anything 'spiritually determined'?

[Alan Burns]

Determined is determined. Why does it matter whether it's 'spiritual' or not?

Discovering our spirituality is what this thread is about.

[Stranger]

Discovering our spirituality is what this thread is about.

That isn't an answer to the question.

[Alan Burns]

How is anything 'spiritually determined'?

If everything is scientifically determined, there can be no such thing as control or manipulation - just reaction.

It is only our spiritual freedom that can free us from the control of scientific laws.

[Gordon]

If everything is scientifically determined, there can be no such thing as control or manipulation - just reaction.

It is only our spiritual freedom that can free us from the control of scientific laws.

More fallacious assertion as opposed to an answer to my question which was: how is anything 'spiritually' determined?

[Stranger]

If everything is scientifically determined, there can be no such thing as control or manipulation - just reaction.

So you keep asserting. How about some logic or evidence?

It is only our spiritual freedom that can free us from the control of scientific laws.

In what way does that make a difference? You keep ignoring this point. Just waffling on about the "spiritual" doesn't magically free you from logic.

You have yet to say what the difference is that makes "control or manipulation" or "free will" possible in the "spiritual" but not in the material.

[torridon]

If everything is scientifically determined, there can be no such thing as control or manipulation - just reaction.

It is only our spiritual freedom that can free us from the control of scientific laws.

'Spiritual freedom', whatever that might be, is not going to free you from logic though.  You are claiming some spiritual realm as a get out clause, like saying 'oh, two plus two equals four, sure, but that's just material science'.   Two plus two would equal four anywhere, even in your spiritual realm if it exists, you cannot escape logic by such slight of hand.

[wigginhall]

Spiritual freedom also sounds very much like escaping existence.   I can see why people might want to do that, life is hard and then you die, but it doesn't mean that you actually can.   

Escapism from life, and from death - it's still escapism.

[Alan Burns]

You have yet to say what the difference is that makes "control or manipulation" or "free will" possible in the "spiritual" but not in the material.

In the scientifically deterministic scenario, there is no point of control, just a series of "cause and effect" chain reactions which began with the Big Bang.  Spiritual control frees us from this cause and effect chain to allow the conscious awareness of human beings to exert control in our lives.  This amazing gift of spiritual freedom can not be derived from a crude evolutionary process, but is a gift from our Creator, and we will eventually be called to account for how we used this gift.

[torridon]

In the scientifically deterministic scenario, there is no point of control, just a series of "cause and effect" chain reactions which began with the Big Bang.  Spiritual control frees us from this cause and effect chain to allow the conscious awareness of human beings to exert control in our lives.  This amazing gift of spiritual freedom can not be derived from a crude evolutionary process, but is a gift from our Creator, and we will eventually be called to account for how we used this gift.

Assertion Alert ! also,

Intimidation Alert !

That's cheating 

[Stranger]

In the scientifically deterministic scenario, there is no point of control, just a series of "cause and effect" chain reactions which began with the Big Bang.  Spiritual control frees us from this cause and effect chain to allow the conscious awareness of human beings to exert control in our lives.  This amazing gift of spiritual freedom can not be derived from a crude evolutionary process, but is a gift from our Creator, and we will eventually be called to account for how we used this gift.

Translation: It's magic, so there!

Seriously, you don't appear to have grasped the problem at all. Cause and effect (determinism) or randomness are the only options for the "spiritual" too. It's just logic - it's platform independent.

[SusanDoris]

Alan Burns

You call evolution 'crude'? Well, I for one think that the way we humans work from birth to death with trillions of cells, billions of bacteria, organs which keep working - and which can be repaired because of the skills of doctors when necessary - etc etc is at the other end of the scale entirely from 'crude'.
It's a pity* you don't appreciate it far more, instead of thinking it was some god that did it.

*Much more than a 'pity', I think a better phrase would be'a disgrace'.

[wigginhall]

'We will eventually be called to account' - ah, here we are, the iron fist in the iron glove.   It always seems to end up with threats, better believe this, or else.   Or, 'I will make you an offer you can't refuse'. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

'We will eventually be called to account' - ah, here we are, the iron fist in the iron glove.   It always seems to end up with threats, better believe this, or else.   Or, 'I will make you an offer you can't refuse'.

And if you don't believe it, Fat Tony would like a word capiche?

[Alan Burns]

Alan Burns

You call evolution 'crude'? Well, I for one think that the way we humans work from birth to death with trillions of cells, billions of bacteria, organs which keep working - and which can be repaired because of the skills of doctors when necessary - etc etc is at the other end of the scale entirely from 'crude'.
It's a pity* you don't appreciate it far more, instead of thinking it was some god that did it.

*Much more than a 'pity', I think a better phrase would be a disgrace'.

I think the real disgrace is the fact that so many people do not appreciate that the gift of life comes from a loving God, not from random juggling of lifeless debris.

[Alan Burns]

Seriously, you don't appear to have grasped the problem at all. Cause and effect (determinism) or randomness are the only options for the "spiritual" too. It's just logic - it's platform independent.

But cause and effect chain reactions will not allow me to choose whether or not I to reply to your post, nor will anything random.

[Stranger]

But cause and effect chain reactions will not allow me to choose whether or not I to reply to your post, nor will anything random.

...and yet you did.

I'll ask again; what else do you think there is? How can anything be both non deterministic and not random? Randomness is not being determined by anything.

[Alan Burns]

I'll ask again; what else do you think there is? How can anything be both non deterministic and not random? Randomness is not being determined by anything.

I believe the human soul is what perceives and interacts with this world via the physical interface of the human brain, but it is not of this world, therefore it is not constrained by its laws.

[Leonard James]

Yes - but the "I" in that sentence is an intractably complex decision making entity that, when we get down to basics, can only be a combination of deterministic and (pseudo-)random processes.

"I" am the result of my brain coordinating sensory inputs with my memory bank, and the result is "me". I then use my evolved ability to choose how to act.

[Stranger]

I believe the human soul is what perceives and interacts with this world via the physical interface of the human brain, but it is not of this world, therefore it is not constrained by its laws.

That doesn't answer the question: it isn't the laws of "this world" that are your problem - it's logic: you might as well propose that in the "spiritual" you can have square circles or that 2 plus 2 equals the square root of pi.

[Leonard James]

I fully agree with you, Len, that we have the ability to consciously choose which way to act.   But if we are totally comprised of what the evolutionary process can produce, we are limited by the constraints of scientific laws, which in effect determine which way we can act.  For our conscious self to have the freedom to choose, we need to look beyond the limitations of the laws of science.  You are halfway there Len.  I am sure you can go the extra step to realise that you have something within you which is not constrained by science.  You have the freedom to control your own thoughts and actions.

I'm afraid the "step" you want me to take is into the realms of fiction ... and I most certainly refuse to take it. My ability to choose is the result of evolution, and you can produce nothing to gainsay that. 

[Stranger]

"I" am the result of my brain coordinating sensory inputs with my memory bank, and the result is "me". I then use my evolved ability to choose how to act.

Yes, you do.

That process, however, can still only be made up of a combination of the deterministic and (pseudo-)random.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

"I" am the result of my brain coordinating sensory inputs with my memory bank, and the result is "me". I then use my evolved ability to choose how to act.

Ah but!! The "I" or the "me" is your mind which is governed by your feelings, well I think that is how it works, more to follow.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Yes, you do.

That process, however, can still only be made up of a combination of the deterministic and (pseudo-)random.

As far as I am concerned that makes no difference to my life at all.