Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Ah but!! The "I" or the "me" is your mind which is governed by your feelings, well I think that is how it works, more to follow.

Gonnagle.

Well, yes, my feelings at any given moment influence how I act, but the choice is still mine.

[Stranger]

As far as I am concerned that makes no difference to my life at all.

You're absolutely right, but it's important to Alan's assertions about the "material" not being able to account for consciousness and "free will" and needing some other magical spiritual realm to do so.

[Leonard James]

You're absolutely right, but it's important to Alan's assertions about the "material" not being able to account for consciousness and "free will" and needing some other magical spiritual realm to do so.

Alan is handicapped by his conviction that "God" exists, so he has to argue as he does.

[Nearly Sane]

Alan is handicapped by his conviction that "God" exists, so he has to argue as he does.

And your position supports him, and is a negation of the scientific method.

[Leonard James]

And your position supports him, and is a negation of the scientific method.

Not at all. Alan knows perfectly well that I do not believe in his "God", or in any other.

[Nearly Sane]

Not at all. Alan knows perfectly well that I do not believe in his "God", or in any other.

No, his position that there is something non deterministic about human action, which is a negation of science.

[Leonard James]

No, his position that there is something non deterministic about human action, which is a negation of science.

Science is our only tool. Not perfect by any means, but we have nothing else.

[Nearly Sane]

Science is our only tool. Not perfect by any means, but we have nothing else.

I pretty much agree and it's based on a whole idea of naturalistic cause and effect. Free will, i.e, the idea that the choice is not fully determined (or has a random component) is a negation of the scientific method.

[Leonard James]

I pretty much agree and it's based on a whole idea of naturalistic cause and effect. Free will, i.e, the idea that the choice is not fully determined (or has a random component) is a negation of the scientific method.

As I said, science ain't perfect! 

[Nearly Sane]

As I said, science ain't perfect! 

You are incorrigible, but I love you for it

[Leonard James]

You are incorrigible, but I love you for it

 

[Stranger]

No, his position that there is something non deterministic about human action, which is a negation of science.

Actually the problem is he's trying to make it both non-deterministic and purposeful (not random). There may be a pseudo-random or even real random element to our actions but, to the extent there is, it is not actually our choice.

Non-determinism per se, isn't a problem for science; the standard formulation of quantum mechanics has non-deterministic elements. You can get genuine random numbers based on this at http://qrng.anu.edu.au/.

[torridon]

But cause and effect chain reactions will not allow me to choose whether or not I to reply to your post, nor will anything random.

Of course they do.

You see a post you disagree with; it prompts a desire in you to respond.  Action and reaction; cause and effect.

[Alan Burns]

Of course they do.

You see a post you disagree with; it prompts a desire in you to respond.  Action and reaction; cause and effect.

But it is not automated.  I have a manual override capability.

[Alan Burns]

Actually the problem is he's trying to make it both non-deterministic and purposeful (not random). There may be a pseudo-random or even real random element to our actions but, to the extent there is, it is not actually our choice.

Non-determinism per se, isn't a problem for science; the standard formulation of quantum mechanics has non-deterministic elements. You can get genuine random numbers based on this at http://qrng.anu.edu.au/.

There is nothing random about a making a conscious choice.

[Nearly Sane]

There is nothing random about a making a conscious choice.

You do realise that, as SKoS has already pointed out, that that isn't his claim? So why are you repeating it as if it is? Did you not understand his explanation?

[torridon]

You see a post you disagree with; it prompts a desire in you to respond.  Action and reaction; cause and effect.

But it is not automated.  I have a manual override capability.

So, you formed a desire to overide your instinctive, or first, response and that prompted a change of tack.  Again, it is action and reaction; cause and effect.  There is no getting away from it Alan.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

So, you formed a desire to overide your instinctive, or first, response and that prompted a change of tack.  Again, it is action and reaction; cause and effect.  There is no getting away from it Alan.

As I understand it Alan can't accept that because it drives a coach and four through his religious beliefs, so instead he's been forced to pouffe into existence something he calls a "soul" that in some unexplained way is free of the cause and effect constraints. There's neither reason nor evidence to support the conjecture - and why he thinks his little man at the controls does not have another, even littler man at his controls is anyone's guess - but there it is. 

You can throw as much reason, neuroscience or anything else at him as you like - he'll cling to the odd notion as a man clings to a plutonium parachute come what may.

[Stranger]

There is nothing random about a making a conscious choice.

Well, okay, nothing random (or at least pseudo-random) is a bold assertion but, if correct, it means that conscious choice is entirely deterministic...

[Alan Burns]

.... and why he thinks his little man at the controls does not have another, even littler man at his controls is anyone's guess - but there it is. 

I am not on automatic pilot - I am in control of my own conscious thoughts, words and actions.  And so are you. 

[Leonard James]

I am not on automatic pilot - I am in control of my own conscious thoughts, words and actions.  And so are you. 

Indeed, Alan. The constant addition of the word 'deterministic' to the discussion is only giving the false impression that we are not actually deciding ourselves, but following some immutable course.

Our actions are the result of our assessment of any given situation, our mood at the time, and our personal decision on how best to deal with it.

[Stranger]

I am not on automatic pilot - I am in control of my own conscious thoughts, words and actions.  And so are you. 

Yes, you are.

But how do you think the "I" in that sentence works and how do you know it can't be physical?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Alan,

I am not on automatic pilot - I am in control of my own conscious thoughts, words and actions.  And so are you. 

But who is this "I" of whom you speak - a collection of forces and matter and the properties that emerge therefrom, or are you still clinging to the cartesian model of a little man at the controls you call a "soul" somehow free of the constraints of cause and effect?

[Stranger]

Indeed, Alan. The constant addition of the word 'deterministic' to the discussion is only giving the false impression that we are not actually deciding ourselves, but following some immutable course.

Our actions are the result of our assessment of any given situation, our mood at the time, and our personal decision on how best to deal with it.

The term deterministic is important to Alan's point about consciousness not being produced by the physical.

Your second paragraph is correct but ignores the important (to this discussion) fact that our assessments, mood, and personal decisions are produced somehow and it can only be a combination of deterministic and random processes.

[Leonard James]

The term deterministic is important to Alan's point about consciousness not being produced by the physical.

That is his mistake.

Your second paragraph is correct but ignores the important (to this discussion) fact that our assessments, mood, and personal decisions are produced somehow and it can only be a combination of deterministic and random processes.

Agreed! It is not purely deterministic.