Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

It's incredible really, that AB puts forward 'spiritual reality' as something not detected by science, but of course, he can't help us to find it either.   

Is this what Christianity has descended to, a kind of intellectual suicide?

Or perhaps an anti-intellectual suicide? Never mind all those facts and evidence and stuff, we know - really know - because our faith tells us so, so it must be true for you lot too.

Incidentally was it you who referenced a theologian way back when who was more nuanced than the bonkers stuff we get here (I want to say "Cullen" or something similar)? I remember looking him up - seemed pretty radical stuff - something about god not needing to be real to be true or some such - I'd like to track him down again if you can think who he is/was. Thank you.

[Shaker]

Incidentally was it you who referenced a theologian way back when who was more nuanced than the bonkers stuff we get here (I want to say "Cullen" or something similar)? I remember looking him up - seemed pretty radical stuff - something about god not needing to be real to be true or some such - I'd like to track him down again if you can think who he is/was. Thank you.

If I recall correctly wiggy in that context was referring to Rowan Williams. There are a number of theologians who regard God not as some externally true, objectively real entity (whatever that may mean) but as a creation of the human brain - Don Cupitt (prolific writer; The Sea of Faith is perhaps the best place to start) and Lloyd Geering (Faith's New Age was the first of his I read) are worth reading in this regard, although many of them are whether you agree with them or not. There are also a couple of small but interesting one-off books by David Hart (Faith in Doubt) and Anthony Freeman (God In Us) which are a fairly quick and easy but thought-provoking read. John Shelby Spong I think still adheres to an objectively real God (or at least did the last I heard - he may have changed his mind) but is a non-realist about pretty much everything else.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Cupitt - that was the very fella. Thank you 

[Shaker]

You said Cullen so it was a toss-up between Don Cupitt and Paul Tillich

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Yeah I know - a "senior" moment...

Now all I have to do is to find a site where folks discuss this more thoughtful take on religion 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Where did the thought of God come from, don't ask me ask the Wigginhall, God is no-thing, and don't go running off to any other forum, me and Vlad need you

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

Where did the thought of God come from...

Human imagination. And it isn't the thought, it's multiple thoughts:-

http://www.godchecker.com/

God is no-thing...

What difference does the "-" make to the meaning of the word nothing?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Where did the thought of God come from, don't ask me ask the Wigginhall, God is no-thing, and don't go running off to any other forum, me and Vlad need you

Look, your Mum and I have been meaning to talk to you for while now, so you'll have to put on your big boy pants and be very grown up about this.

OK my special soldier?

Good...

Sometimes, well, folks don't get on as well as they used to even though they love you very, very much so they have to be in different places. That doesn't mean that you can't visit me whenever you want to though - I'll even have all your favourite pictures on the wall in your new bedroom - and we can go to the zoo and stuff together every Sunday if you'd like too. It'll be great! Look after your little brother for me though won't you - you're the man of the house now, and little Vlad can't help telling all those fibs. He'll grow out of it one day I'm sure, so hang on in there for him.

Aw, Gonners, don't do that - give me a hug and dry your eyes now. It'll all be ok, I promise. Would you like an ice cream?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

Don't ask me ask the Wigginhall something about God being nothing we can ever imagine, all those Gods we imagine are just us anthropomorphizing God.

God is nothing, no-thing, Shaker thinks it is just a cop out, or something like that

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Shakes,

Yeah I know - a "senior" moment...

Now all I have to do is to find a site where folks discuss this more thoughtful take on religion 

Start a thread right here and right now, mon brave

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

 

Yeah! I am always promised ice cream, bit like that depression thread that is running, don't tell me we will have ice cream tomorrow

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, I like a bit of thoughtful theology.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Start a thread right here and right now, mon brave

Do you know my friend, I might just do that - if the Christians won't come to the mountain, then the mountain - oh hang on, that's not right....

...anyways, why don't we happy band of intrepid explorers go looking for some intelligent theology as it doesn't seem to want to come looking for us? Let me have a read around to see what might make an interesting conversation starter. It'll make a nice change from throwing stuff at glaring logical fallacies at least.

Watch this space - to infinity and beyond!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Yeah! I am always promised ice cream, bit like that depression thread that is running, don't tell me we will have ice cream tomorrow

Tomorrow? Did I say say tomorrow? Look, er, something's come up - could we maybe go to the zoo next weekend instead?

Aw don't cry - yes yes I know I promised but, well, sometimes things get in the way of that. Sorry. What about Derek though? You know, Mummy's new friend - after all he's moved in rent free and got the use of the BMW while I got the crappy Fiesta so the least he could do is to stand for a coupe of zoo tickets...

You don't want to go with Derek. Can't say I blame you frankly - those trousers he wears for golf really are shockers aren't they? - look, promise promise we'll do it next weekend OK? Good lad.

How's little Vlad doing by the way? Aw no, suspended from primary school again? Really? What for this time? "Mrs Jenkins says he can't just keep changing the meanings of words to suit himself, and he's still chewing the crayons"? Oh Jeez, I'm not sure I signed up for all this...look, I've got to go now - see you soon son, love you too - Bye!

[ippy]

Monty Python, the "Arthur Two Sheds Jackson", sketch; Arthur is being interviewed about his new book, the interviewer asked him about the sheds, Arthur answers as quickly as he can so that get back to promoting his new book, as per all other python stuff, no matter how much he tries he can't get the interviewer to break away from talking about, asking questions about, the blasted two sheds no matter how hard he tries to do so.

I've been following this thread and I think I have seen something similar to the Arthur Two Sheds element somewhere, can't quite think where though?   

(I believe it was a bit of a p take out of G B S, thrown in).

ippy

P S, If anyone decides to comment on this post, could you let us know how many sheds you have too.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Forum,

A question, do you think you need to be mad to be a member of this forum?

What!! The Searching for God thread seems like a good place to ask this very important question.

Gonnagle.

[SusanDoris]

Mods: if you think this post is out of order, please delete.

Before people here read the following, please note that I personally insist that whatever they think, they should feel totally obliged to remain principally members of R&E. *visualise here a stern, glaring, forceful icon )

I find it very interesting the way forums have their own character. When I first had access to the internet (with Dolphin software), I found it rather uninteresting, but a friend said, 'Sooner or later I know you'll find something that's just up your street.' She was right. It was message boards. 

The first was the Graham Hancock one. the second was JREF which is now International Skeptics, quickly followed by the BBC which, of course, led here.
Then The Atheist in JREF said he thought I should join Ship of Fools.

The GH recently changed format and although I look in as a sort of original, I find the weird ideas far outweigh the reasonable now, so I post only occasionally. The IS is very good for critical thinkers and strong opinions.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Blue,

Where did the thought of God come from, don't ask me ask the Wigginhall, God is no-thing, and don't go running off to any other forum, me and Vlad need you

Gonnagle.

Ah, we three eh, The three caballeros....

[Walt Zingmatilder]

"Arthur Two Sheds Jackson",

LOL.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How's little Vlad doing by the way? Aw no, suspended from primary school again? Really? What for this time?

Criticising the government's academisation programme............Keep taking the tests.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How's little Vlad doing by the way? Aw no, suspended from primary school again? Really? What for this time? "Mrs Jenkins says he can't just keep changing the meanings of words to suit himself, and he's still chewing the crayons"?

That's just you projecting again, you sad old Ontological materialist.

[Alan Burns]

It's incredible really, that AB puts forward 'spiritual reality' as something not detected by science, but of course, he can't help us to find it either.   

You have to remember that science is just a man made attempt to discover certain things about reality with our limited perception and resources.

We have no concept of how much of reality science has uncovered so far.  It may well be just a small fraction of what is out there.  What I have tried to do on this thread is to highlight the limitations of science in order to remove some of the barriers to faith which some people put up.

My Christian faith is not based on anything scientific, but tangible truths revealed in many different ways - through prayer, scripture, experiences, other people and my own inner sense of reality

[Maeght]

What I have tried to do on this thread is to highlight the limitations of science in order to remove some of the barriers to faith which some people put up.

No you haven't, you've asserted that certain things are impossible to be purely material and that this is evidence for the existence of God.

My Christian faith is not based on anything scientific, but tangible truths revealed in many different ways - through prayer, scripture, experiences, other people and my own inner sense of reality

So why attempt to bring science into it. Best stick to stating your beliefs and leave it at that.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Alan,

You have to remember that science is just a man made attempt to discover certain things about reality with our limited perception and resources.

You don't need to remind anyone of that - no-one says anything else. What you need to be aware of though is that science is already significantly further along some of the roads to which you think is has no access.

We have no concept of how much of reality science has uncovered so far.  It may well be just a small fraction of what is out there.  What I have tried to do on this thread is to highlight the limitations of science in order to remove some of the barriers to faith which some people put up.

Then you're wasting your time again because it's not the limitations of science that erect barriers to faith; rather it's your inability to offer a method of any kind to enable other to sift your faith claims from completely wrong answers. That you rely almost entirely on logical fallacies when you do attempt an argument doesn't help you one iota either. 

My Christian faith is not based on anything scientific...

Clearly.

...but tangible truths revealed in many different ways - through prayer, scripture, experiences, other people and my own inner sense of reality

Which is lovely for you no doubt, but focus on that "My" for a moment. It's your personal, subjective faith and not an objective truth for anyone else as you assert. If you finally want to attempt to bridge that gap, then still you have all your work ahead of you to do so by making an argument that isn't logically hopeless. 

So far at least you've shown no sign of being capable of making a coherent argument, but if you want to give it a go nonetheless I'll read it with interest.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Methodology is not ontology.

Isn't saying ''what faith says is indistinguishable from a completely wrong answer'' begging the question?