Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3883904 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12725 on: April 28, 2016, 02:04:51 PM »
Yes, I was somewhat disappointed with the clip in the sense that he didn't even mention determinism - which many people regard as important to the question. However, what he said probably had more to do with freedom in practice,

The clip is in the context of an online psychology course on Mind and the Prof is talking to that syllabus which in week 4 covers agency and free will in the sense that humans are free of instinct, ie we can choose instinctive responses or more considered responses resulting from mulling things over.  In that sense we have more freedom, than a dog, say. But there is a whole deeper philosophical level to the free will debate beyond the scope of that psychology course.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12726 on: April 28, 2016, 02:23:07 PM »
Alan,

Quote
God can never be fiction because He has made Himself known to me, and nothing can change this.  You have my sympathy because you do not know God's love for you.  I hope and pray that one day you will discover the truth.

Well, let's agree that something happened to you, that there was an episode of some sort.

Now one possibility is that it something you call "God" paid you a visit, and moreover that the god that did that just happened to the one with which you were culturally most familiar.

Another possibility though is that the cause you attribute to the episode - "God" - wasn't in fact the cause at all, and that instead one of the various real world (but less solipsistically thrilling) explanations was the real one.

We know now that you have no logical or even coherent argument for this god being a truth for me, but how even would you propose to decide whether it's a truth for you as you seem to have no method for removing the latter option so as to leave only the former?
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12727 on: April 28, 2016, 02:32:46 PM »
Dear Blue,

Yes!! Us Christians are well known for our "episodes" episoding all over the place, you, you! Auditor.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12728 on: April 28, 2016, 02:37:38 PM »
Gonners,

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Yes!! Us Christians are well known for our "episodes" episoding all over the place, you, you! Auditor.

I didn't mean it in a particularly pejorative sense - it's a fact though that countless people through the ages have thought they experienced all manner of spooks, ghoulies and gods dropping by and presumably for the most part at least you'd accept that their causal explanations are misattributions.

My question therefore was about what qualitatively makes whatever AB thinks he experienced any different.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12729 on: April 28, 2016, 03:18:26 PM »
Dear Blue,

Not pejorative, fair enough, is spooks and ghoulies pejorative, nevermind, only a forum you Auditor, by the way old chap, this "true for me" thing, it can only be true for you if it happened to you, then it would be truly true for you.

I can never convince you with my experience, neither can Alan.

Good here ain't it  ;) ;)

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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12730 on: April 28, 2016, 03:27:20 PM »
Dear Blue,

Not pejorative, fair enough, is spooks and ghoulies pejorative, nevermind, only a forum you Auditor, by the way old chap, this "true for me" thing, it can only be true for you if it happened to you, then it would be truly true for you.

I can never convince you with my experience, neither can Alan.

Good here ain't it  ;) ;)

Gonnagle.

I can't speak for anybody else here, but I am perfectly convinced about your and Alan's experiences. What I do not agree with is your interpretation of those experiences.

To attribute them to some kind of supernatural god is just wishful thinking on your parts.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12731 on: April 28, 2016, 03:28:40 PM »
Gonners,

Quote
Not pejorative, fair enough, is spooks and ghoulies pejorative, nevermind, only a forum you Auditor...

But there are plenty of misattributions to causes that you would describe as spooks and ghoulies and Will O' the Wisps and and and...

I always look askance when theists says something like, "how dare you compare my experience to those ones when they're obviously daft" as if for some reason I should treat their personal attributions of cause any more seriously than the personal attributions of causes of the others. So far as I can tell the claim "God" is every bit as preposterous and ridiculous as the claim "leprechauns", and I really don't see why I should privilege one above the other for this purpose.   

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...by the way old chap, this "true for me" thing, it can only be true for you if it happened to you, then it would be truly true for you.

No, something can be "true for you" when you believed it happened - whether it actually did or not though is a different matter.

Quote
can never convince you with my experience, neither can Alan.

And yet he attempted to do so with his proselytising efforts. You can incidentally convince me of your experience, at least beyond reasonable doubt, but you'd need something more than a really strong opinion to do so, especially when that opinion relates to something for which there's no common ground of an inter-subjective experience. Again, your "God" is my "leprechauns" for this purpose. 

Quote
Good here ain't it  ;) ;)

Sometimes, yes.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:15:20 PM by bluehillside »
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God

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12732 on: April 28, 2016, 04:22:56 PM »
I can't speak for anybody else here, but I am perfectly convinced about your and Alan's experiences. What I do not agree with is your interpretation of those experiences.

To attribute them to some kind of supernatural god is just wishful thinking on your parts.
That about sums it up especially as nobody seems able to describe the God who is initiating those experiences.  It could be Brahman, Zeus, Amun Ra or a self induced explosion of feel good hormones.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12733 on: April 28, 2016, 04:50:24 PM »
I'm sure that's what you believe but you have been unable to provide any hint of any objective eveidence or logical reasoning to support it. You might, therefore, be mistaken.

You also should consider that if you are correct, then your god is hiding from other people, which would be evil and unjust, if it is important for us to believe.

Any thoughts on the 'one size fits all' appeal to 'God-dodging' beloved of certain religious caterpillars?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12734 on: April 28, 2016, 04:53:44 PM »
That about sums it up especially as nobody seems able to describe the God who is initiating those experiences.  It could be Brahman, Zeus, Amun Ra or a self induced explosion of feel good hormones.

I once thought it was Brahman - now I'd go for the final explanation. I was a very horny young man, and sublimated sex-energy can produce some striking effects. I'm sure many are familiar with Bernini's sculpture of Santa Teresa.....
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12735 on: April 28, 2016, 05:15:27 PM »
I once thought it was Brahman - now I'd go for the final explanation. I was a very horny young man, and sublimated sex-energy can produce some striking effects. I'm sure many are familiar with Bernini's sculpture of Santa Teresa.....
Oh, you sinful man!  ;)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12736 on: April 28, 2016, 07:05:20 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Quote
Any thoughts on the 'one size fits all' appeal to 'God-dodging' beloved of certain religious caterpillars?

That’s a point – the banana who accuses others of “god dodging” actually means something like, “dodging the god I happen to believe in, but not one of the many others available”.

It’s also a perfect example of the begging the question fallacy – just assume this “God” and then accuse others of dodging it. Be nice if those who tried it finally gave up with the method dodging to establish this god in the first place but that seems unlikely to happen any time soon, at least around these here parts.

Ah well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12737 on: April 28, 2016, 07:14:37 PM »
Be nice if those who tried it finally gave up with the method dodging to establish this god in the first place but that seems unlikely to happen any time soon, at least around these here parts.

Ah well.
It's been done elsewhere some other time though ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12738 on: April 28, 2016, 07:32:57 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
It's been done elsewhere some other time though ;)

Of course, fancy me forgetting Hope's now classic, "I definitely posted it earlier only I can't quite remember where (pats pockets)...oh Lawdy is that the time already? (looks ostentatiously at pocket watch)... I've just seen someone across the room I reeeally must talk to (glances over shoulder as he walks away)...bye for now...anyways you can't disprove it (looks triumphant)...byeeee" etc schtick.

Mea culpa.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 08:18:35 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12739 on: April 28, 2016, 07:49:59 PM »
That's better :D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12740 on: April 28, 2016, 08:22:06 PM »
Hi Dicky,

That’s a point – the banana who accuses others of “god dodging” actually means something like, “dodging the god I happen to believe in, but not one of the many others available”.

It’s also a perfect example of the begging the question fallacy – just assume this “God” and then accuse others of dodging it. Be nice if those who tried it finally gave up with the method dodging to establish this god in the first place but that seems unlikely to happen any time soon, at least around these here parts.

Ah well.
I would move that God Dodgers would avoid any God. However the God you are avoiding is obviously the one stimulating your avoidance behaviour.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12741 on: April 28, 2016, 09:06:04 PM »
Your self-importance is hardly an argument.

Please feel free to present the logic....
My argument has nothing to do with self importance - just logic and common sense.

Evolutionary algorithms have often been used successfully to solve complex problems by using simple incremental steps to reach a feasible solution.

I used such algorithms in my PhD research into computer aided optimum design of structures, which aimed to produce structural designs at minimum cost which would safely support various load conditions.

To reach the optimum goal, my system would test various combinations of discrete variables and eliminate those that failed or were too costly.  When a combination was eliminated, my algorithm would backtrack to the last feasible solution and try branching the variables in a different direction or combination.  You may see that there are some parallels with the the natural selection process of evolution.

The problem is that for the algorithm to work it needs a vast number of combinations to be available for checking.   It is relatively easy for the computer to generate an almost limitless number of combinations, but this is not so easy with the formation of life on this earth.  There will be a limited number of mutations generated for the natural selection process to work on, and if these are truly random mutations, the vast majority of them will be non beneficial.  The number of beneficial mutations needed to evolve a single cell organism to the billions of cells in a complex human being is incalculable.  The true probability of all these beneficial mutations being generated at random and each one passing the survival test (and not getting destroyed by a non beneficial mutation) is as close a definition of absolute zero as you can get.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12742 on: April 28, 2016, 09:17:20 PM »
It is relatively easy for the computer to generate an almost limitless number of combinations, but this is not so easy with the formation of life on this earth.  There will be a limited number of mutations generated for the natural selection process to work on, and if these are truly random mutations, the vast majority of them will be non beneficial.  The number of beneficial mutations needed to evolve a single cell organism to the billions of cells in a complex human being is incalculable.  The true probability of all these beneficial mutations being generated at random and each one passing the survival test (and not getting destroyed by a non beneficial mutation) is as close a definition of absolute zero as you can get.
This is what's technically known in the trade as horseshit. Here are a few links (from the redoubtable Talk Origins site) to explain why:

http://goo.gl/LtgNvz

http://goo.gl/Ib9e4T

http://goo.gl/L2hiA1

http://goo.gl/ssxenw
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:20:19 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12743 on: April 28, 2016, 09:27:51 PM »
Alan,

Quote
My argument has nothing to do with self importance - just logic and common sense.

Seems unlikely given your efforts hitherto, but let's see.

Quote
Evolutionary algorithms have often been used successfully to solve complex problems by using simple incremental steps to reach a feasible solution.

I used such algorithms in my PhD research into computer aided optimum design of structures, which aimed to produce structural designs at minimum cost which would safely support various load conditions.

To reach the optimum goal, my system would test various combinations of discrete variables and eliminate those that failed or were too costly.  When a combination was eliminated, my algorithm would backtrack to the last feasible solution and try branching the variables in a different direction or combination.  You may see that there are some parallels with the the natural selection process of evolution.

Yes, but only some - the critical difference that's missing though is that evolution isn't working toward a predetermined plan like your model, but rather it causes adaptations in response to whatever the proximate environment happens to throw at it.

Quote
The problem is that for the algorithm to work it needs a vast number of combinations to be available for checking.   It is relatively easy for the computer to generate an almost limitless number of combinations, but this is not so easy with the formation of life on this earth.  There will be a limited number of mutations generated for the natural selection process to work on, and if these are truly random mutations, the vast majority of them will be non beneficial.

Yes they will be, but you seriously underestimate the number of opportunities for mutation to occur - in sexual reproduction a mutation can occur from "faulty" DNA copying every time successful mating happens. That's who knows how many trillions upon trillions of events.

Quote
The number of beneficial mutations needed to evolve a single cell organism to the billions of cells in a complex human being is incalculable.  The true probability of all these beneficial mutations being generated at random and each one passing the survival test (and not getting destroyed by a non beneficial mutation) is as close a definition of absolute zero as you can get.

Try looking up "anthropic principle". The number of attempts that holes would have had to fit exactly a specific puddle is incalculably high too.

Your basic mistake here is a fallacy called survivor bias - because Homo sapiens (or for that matter the puddle) made it, there must have been some plan all along for it to be that way. For all you know though there's a not very bright eight-nosed Bajingle monster on Alpha Centauri congratulating himself too by pointing at the incalculably long odds against him existing in his environment.

Nice try, but you've committed the classic mistake of looking down the wrong end of a telescope, much as might the lottery winner who decides that little old him must be special given the odds against him winning. The point though is that the universe doesn't know or care care whether you, the Bajngle monster or nothing at all emerges as a life form, any more than Camelot knows or cares who will win next week's lottery. 

Sorry, but there it is.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:40:54 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12744 on: April 28, 2016, 09:46:58 PM »
Just a few basic points of information for Alan:

1) Most mutations are neutral

2) Harmful mutations tend not to last long

3) Beneficial mutations tend to stick around

4) Mutations may be considered either neutral, harmful or beneficial according to environmental factors(which constantly change)


http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12745 on: April 28, 2016, 11:07:49 PM »
Harmful mutations tend not to last long
True.  Just long enough to kill off the current specimen.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12746 on: April 28, 2016, 11:12:04 PM »
Homo sapiens (or for that matter the puddle) made it, there must have been some plan all along for it to be that way.
Bad example.  There is no comparison between the complexity of a homo sapien and the complexity of a puddle.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12747 on: April 28, 2016, 11:17:48 PM »
Your basic mistake here is a fallacy called survivor bias - because Homo sapiens (or for that matter the puddle) made it, there must have been some plan all along for it to be that way. For all you know though there's a not very bright eight-nosed Bajingle monster on Alpha Centauri congratulating himself too by pointing at the incalculably long odds against him existing in his environment.

Nice try, but you've committed the classic mistake of looking down the wrong end of a telescope, much as might the lottery winner who decides that little old him must be special given the odds against him winning. The point though is that the universe doesn't know or care care whether you, the Bajngle monster or nothing at all emerges as a life form, any more than Camelot knows or cares who will win next week's lottery. 
But for the sheer grinding tedium of having to refute for the umpteenth time Alan's wearisome regurgitation of this creationist diarrhoea this is what I'd have said, in essence. He really doesn't seem to know (and doubtless wouldn't care overmuch if he did know) that he's committing the Texas sharpshooter fallacy - said gunman, of course, firing his weapon into the side of a barn and then drawing a target around the bullet hole. While the origin of life remains a great mystery to date, the mathematical arguments drafted in to illustrate the suppose implausibility (or for the really bold/clueless, impossibility) of the emergence of a primordial self-replicating organism all fail for one reason or another, the primary reason being the fallacies that bluey and I have highlighted: working backward from present complexity when of course the process in actuality worked forward. There didn't need to be any specific arrangement of elements to give rise to life; life arose from whatever combination of elements that 'worked' in a given environment at a given time. Any combination - a hand of cards; the disposition of pieces on a chess board; a massive lottery win - looks phenomenally improbable in hindsight, and yet there is that particular hand of cards, there is that particular arrangement of chess pieces and there is Fred Smith from Tamworth with his giant cheque.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12748 on: April 28, 2016, 11:18:51 PM »
Bad example.  There is no comparison between the complexity of a homo sapien and the complexity of a puddle.
Whoosh - there goes the point, zooming past. What do you think are the odds of a small body of water exactly, completely and neatly fitting the hole - not a single gap - in which it happens to find itself, Alan?

Painfully predictable that Alan refers to the complexity of H. sapiens and not the complexity of a silver birch tree, however.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:47:45 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12749 on: April 29, 2016, 06:14:57 AM »
I would move that God Dodgers would avoid any God. However the God you are avoiding is obviously the one stimulating your avoidance behaviour.

Why would you want to try to dodge God if you thought he did exist?