Searching for GOD...

[jjohnjil]

Indeed, you're right. I am now in the process of changing my iron for a much better model which will, I hope, enable me to look more carefully at the clothes I am pressing.

Apologies offered, jjohnjil

And accepted.

It at least made me realise how humiliating it must be for the Hope/Vlad/AB camp.

[ippy]

And accepted.

It at least made me realise how humiliating it must be for the Hope/Vlad/AB camp.

It'not fair of you to include Hope, because he has supplied the evidence, some time ago on this forum, that god does in fact exist, you don't seem to have taken that into consideration jj.

ippy

[jjohnjil]

It'not fair of you to include Hope, because he has supplied the evidence, some time ago on this forum, that god does in fact exist, you don't seem to have taken that into concideration jj.

ippy

I remember it well, ippy, it was the day Hell froze over.  You should remember it too, it was all over every newspaper in the world! 

A truly earth shattering revelation that we had all been waiting millennia to be told!  I believe Hope got four Nobel prizes for it. 

[ippy]

I remember it well, ippy, it was the day Hell froze over.  You should remember it too, it was all over every newspaper in the world! 

A truly earth shattering revelation that we had all been waiting millennia to be told!  I believe Hope got four Nobel prizes for it.

Only four?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Ultimately, the realisation of God's existence will surely come when our spiritual soul no longer sees things through human eyes.  Then we may come to accept the reality of God's creative power, and discover the reason why we have been given the amazing gift of free will.  And we then ask ourselves the question: How well did we use this gift?

[Shaker]

Ultimately, the realisation of God's existence will surely come when our spiritual soul no longer sees things through human eyes.

The Assertatron trundles on ...

[Stranger]

Ultimately, the realisation of God's existence will surely come when our spiritual soul no longer sees things through human eyes.

So you assert, but have totally failed to back up with evidence or reasoning.

Then we may come to accept the reality of God's creative power, and discover the reason why we have been given the amazing gift of free will.  And we then ask ourselves the question: How well did we use this gift?

Yet again, the logical absurdity of free will from the point of view of an omnipotent and omniscient god. This 'gift' cannot logically exist.

[torridon]

Ultimately, the realisation of God's existence will surely come when our spiritual soul no longer sees things through human eyes.  Then we may come to accept the reality of God's creative power, and discover the reason why we have been given the amazing gift of free will.  And we then ask ourselves the question: How well did we use this gift?

How would one use this 'gift' to make different choices ? Talk us through an example.  Suppose I am thirsty and I have a choice between tea or coffee.  In what way would I make a different choice if my will was 'free' of something. How would I identify a choice that was made using free will rather than just will ?

[Brownie]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm! Well why didn't it come through for me as a kid when I needed it?

I'm sure it did.  You are still here, you've had a good life by your own account.  You had two parents who were misguided when it came to forcing you into a religious box but otherwise cared for you and your sisters, no more than any parent should of course but from what you said, you lived somewhere lovely, had fun and were decently educated.  It's more than many have.  Move on floo.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm sure it did.  You are still here, you've had a good life by your own account.  You had two parents who were misguided when it came to forcing you into a religious box but otherwise cared for you and your sisters, no more than any parent should of course but from what you said, you lived somewhere lovely, had fun and were decently educated.  It's more than many have.  Move on floo.

Are you going to tell Alan Burns to move on too? If not, why not?

[floo]

I'm sure it did.  You are still here, you've had a good life by your own account.  You had two parents who were misguided when it came to forcing you into a religious box but otherwise cared for you and your sisters, no more than any parent should of course but from what you said, you lived somewhere lovely, had fun and were decently educated.  It's more than many have.  Move on floo.

As I said god didn't come through for me when I needed it as a kid!

[Brownie]

Are you going to tell Alan Burns to move on too? If not, why not?

Yup.  Move on Alan.

[Alan Burns]

Yet again, the logical absurdity of free will from the point of view of an omnipotent and omniscient god. This 'gift' cannot logically exist.

Yes, the gift of free will does defy human logic.

[Nearly Sane]

Yup.  Move on Alan.

Points!

[Alan Burns]

How would I identify a choice that was made using free will rather than just will ?

The fact that your conscious awareness directs the choice you make, and that it may override all the traits of built in instincts and learnt experiences.

[Stranger]

Yes, the gift of free will does defy human logic.

It defies logic, Alan. You might as well claim that god has made two plus two equal to the square root of pi and is hiding in the corner of a circle....

[Nearly Sane]

The fact that your conscious awareness directs the choice you make, and that it may override all the traits of built in instincts and learnt experiences.

You do know writing 'the fact that' doesn't make it a fact? If so, then you are lying.

[Stranger]

The fact that your conscious awareness directs the choice you make, and that it may override all the traits of built in instincts and learnt experiences.

How?

Oh yes, you don't know:-

I admit that I do not know how conscious awareness and free will can work in the spiritual sense...

It's must just be....... magic!

[Alan Burns]

You do know writing 'the fact that' doesn't make it a fact? If so, then you are lying.

Is it a lie to state as a fact that my conscious awareness is directing the typing of these keys? 

Also, would it be possible to tell a deliberate lie if we did not have free will?

[Nearly Sane]

Is it a lie to state as a fact that my conscious awareness is directing the typing of these keys? 

Also, would it be possible to tell a deliberate lie if we did not have free will?

First question, yes. Unless you want to state that everything that anyone actually believes is a fact.

Second question, yes. It's just you have no choice in doing it. Deliberate means intentional, rather than not determined. 

[Enki]

Ultimately, the realisation of God's existence will surely come when our spiritual soul no longer sees things through human eyes.  Then we may come to accept the reality of God's creative power, and discover the reason why we have been given the amazing gift of free will.  And we then ask ourselves the question: How well did we use this gift?

Pure conjecture on your part, Alan, but, for the purposes of my response, I'll go along with what you say:
 
If you are indeed correct then my attitude would be quite clear. I would have tried to use this 'gift' of free will in keeping with my own values. Of course, I might well have failed at times, just as anyone(Christian or non Christian) might, but as long as I have used this 'gift' sincerely, then I would expect to be judged by your God in a fair and equitable manner, and certainly not based upon an unfair selection process of whether I was a Christian or not.

Your idea that at some point later we may discover that your God actually exists, and that we will then discover the reason why we have been given this 'amazing gift', can have no bearing whatever on what I have just said.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Is it a lie to state as a fact that my conscious awareness is directing the typing of these keys? 

Also, would it be possible to tell a deliberate lie if we did not have free will?

Can I take it that you've now abandoned misrepresenting evolution for support (see Reply 13336) and have instead retreated to your preferred tactic of logical hopelessness?

Incidentally, I see that you criticise "man-made logic", presumably in the hope that that allows you to drive a coach and four through it by just asserting some supposed higher kind of knowledge. This too is circular though: how do you know that you have access to this higher level of reasoning denied to everyone else rather than that you're just really bad at reasoning? And if you answer, "because god" you're stuck again into the loop of "because God, I know; I know, therefore God.

[Maeght]

Also, would it be possible to tell a deliberate lie if we did not have free will?

Yes of course - why wouldn't it be?

[Alan Burns]

....  Unless you want to state that everything that anyone actually believes is a fact.

But surely the belief in anything considered as a fact is dependent on our interpretation of sensory data.  My belief that conscious awareness drives the keys on this keyboard is about as basic a reality as I can get.  If this "fact" is not true, then how can I possibly consider any other "facts" to be true?

Do I really exist? 

[Alan Burns]

Yup.  Move on Alan.

Onwards and upwards - to infinity and beyond ....