Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3887944 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12875 on: May 03, 2016, 03:19:12 PM »
But surely the belief in anything considered as a fact is dependent on our interpretation of sensory data.  My belief that conscious awareness drives the keys on this keyboard is about as basic a reality as I can get.  If this "fact" is not true, then how can I possibly consider any other "facts" to be true?

Do I really exist?  :-\

I remain agnostic on that one, Alan ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12876 on: May 03, 2016, 03:34:23 PM »
But surely the belief in anything considered as a fact is dependent on our interpretation of sensory data.  My belief that conscious awareness drives the keys on this keyboard is about as basic a reality as I can get.  If this "fact" is not true, then how can I possibly consider any other "facts" to be true?

Do I really exist?  :-\

But your position argues that X is true and X is not true are both facts which is illogical.

Arguing that what you believe is a fact is epistemological nonsense.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12877 on: May 03, 2016, 04:26:48 PM »
But surely the belief in anything considered as a fact is dependent on our interpretation of sensory data.  My belief that conscious awareness drives the keys on this keyboard is about as basic a reality as I can get.  If this "fact" is not true, then how can I possibly consider any other "facts" to be true?

You can always do what many others of us are doing - try to integrate findings from science to cultivate a more nuanced understanding.  The science isn't going to go away if we pretend it isn't there.

Do I really exist?  :-\

we have a thread for that, if interested to explore the nature of self :

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11875.0

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12878 on: May 03, 2016, 04:45:28 PM »
Are you going to tell Alan Burns to move on too? If not, why not?

I like this post of yours NS, really smart succinct, nail on the head.

ippy 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12879 on: May 03, 2016, 08:31:13 PM »
It's just you have no choice in doing it.
So any criminal should have a cast iron alibi -
"Sorry Guv, it was scientific determinism wot made me do it - cudn' elp it!"
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:33:17 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12880 on: May 03, 2016, 08:35:04 PM »
So any criminal should have a cast iron alibi -
"Sorry Guv, it was scientific determinism wot made me do it"

(A) that's another fallacy - argumentum ad consequentiam

And
(B) it assumes free will, asserting again, as existing in the decision.

Apart from being based on a fallacy and a basic misunderstanding of logic though ...

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12881 on: May 04, 2016, 08:19:02 AM »
AB,

Can I take it that you've now abandoned misrepresenting evolution for support (see Reply 13336) and have instead retreated to your preferred tactic of logical hopelessness?

I have certainly not abandoned my belief that God's will can invoke creative forces, just as human will can.  And I do believe that the existence of conscious awareness and our capacity to make conscious choices are further evidence of God's creative ability which will never be replicated by material science.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12882 on: May 04, 2016, 08:25:41 AM »
And I do believe that the existence of conscious awareness and our capacity to make conscious choices are further evidence of God's creative ability which will never be replicated by material science.

Evidence in what way? You have admitted that you can't explain consciousness even with your mumbo jumbo about souls and god:-

I admit that I do not know how conscious awareness and free will can work in the spiritual sense...

So, how can the existence of something that is not explained by your god, be evidence of your god?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12883 on: May 04, 2016, 08:36:18 AM »
Evidence in what way? You have admitted that you can't explain consciousness even with your mumbo jumbo about souls and god:-

So, how can the existence of something that is not explained by your god, be evidence of your god?
My point is that consciousness will never be explained in material terms because material science can't define a recipient.  The recipient is me, which I believe to be my God given spiritual soul which perceives and interacts with my material brain.  I do not know how it works, but without it I would just be a machine.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12884 on: May 04, 2016, 08:49:58 AM »
My point is that consciousness will never be explained in material terms because material science can't define a recipient.

That isn't evidence, it's an assertion, based, as far as I can see, on nothing but blind faith.

The recipient is me, which I believe to be my God given spiritual soul which perceives and interacts with my material brain.  I do not know how it works, but without it I would just be a machine.

Again, nothing but blind faith.

Where is the evidence you spoke of...?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12885 on: May 04, 2016, 09:15:56 AM »
My point is that consciousness will never be explained in material terms because material science can't define a recipient.  The recipient is me, which I believe to be my God given spiritual soul which perceives and interacts with my material brain.  I do not know how it works, but without it I would just be a machine.

And so presumably in your theory with an elephant, the recipient is the elephant's god given soul, and with a kangaroo, the recipient is the kangaroo's god given soul.  That is, unless your theory just arbitrarily denies souls to other creatures with cognitive perception and consciousness for no valid reason.  Do kangaroos get resurrected after death also then ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12886 on: May 04, 2016, 09:54:43 AM »
And so presumably in your theory with an elephant, the recipient is the elephant's god given soul, and with a kangaroo, the recipient is the kangaroo's god given soul.  That is, unless your theory just arbitrarily denies souls to other creatures with cognitive perception and consciousness for no valid reason.  Do kangaroos get resurrected after death also then ?
Human beings would appear to be unique amongst the animal kingdom in having awareness of their spiritual nature.  There is abundant evidence that belief in a soul which survives the death of the body is a perfectly natural feature of the human race.  If God gave us this awareness, it was for a reason.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12887 on: May 04, 2016, 10:04:37 AM »
Human beings would appear to be unique amongst the animal kingdom in having awareness of their spiritual nature.

Depends on how you define 'spiritual', but in the sense of how I suspect you are using the term then I don't!

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There is abundant evidence that belief in a soul which survives the death of the body is a perfectly natural feature of the human race.

There may be evidence that there is such a belief - but that isn't evidence that the belief is true.

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If God gave us this awareness, it was for a reason.

'If' being the operative word.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12888 on: May 04, 2016, 10:15:36 AM »
Human beings would appear to be unique amongst the animal kingdom in having awareness of their spiritual nature.
Sounds madey-uppy to me Alan, though unsurprisingly self-regarding.
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There is abundant evidence that belief in a soul which survives the death of the body is a perfectly natural feature of the human race.
The problem with your thesis is that beliefs aren't static - they come and go, ebb and flow. New ones arise and old ones die out. If you had conducted a survey anywhere in Europe at any point in history up to about a century ago you could have concluded, if you were unaware that you were committing a massive logical fallacy (several of them, actually), that belief in God was 'natural' because so widespread. The more chuckleheaded would adduce this as evidence for the correctness of god-belief.

But your three-fallacies-for-the-price-of-one post goes so badly awry in three main areas of which you're evidently wholly unaware.

Firstly, the mere fact that something is natural tells us nothing of its rightness. This fallacy is the appeal to nature.

Secondly, raw numbers count for nothing with regard to the correctness of a belief. Numbers tell you about numbers - that's it. The suggestion otherwise is the ad populum/ad numerum fallacy.

Thirdly, lurking in the shadows behind the preceding fallacy is the implication that the age of a belief - how long it has managed to survive in people's minds - says something about its rightness. This is the ad antiquitatem fallacy. Age is age is age, and, er, that's it.

There's a pretty comprehensive lack of historical sense in your thesis, Alan. You treat beliefs as fixed and immutable, whereas as I've already said they come and they go. We've not only seen but continue to see the thoroughgoing collapse of belief in gods and death-surviving immortal souls in the First World (the two are distinct and discrete categories but of course you often find them hand-in-hand; "the irreducible minimum of theology" as Bertie Russell put it). For so long the USA was an eccentricity and an anomaly in religious terms compared to Europe, yet here too the same processes are well underway. Who knows where we're going to be in another hundred, two hundred, five hundred years? I don't like guesswork - as a deep thinker once said, predictions are very difficult, especially about the future - but if we model the future on existing trends then we can make a reasonable case that the trend is one-way.
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If God gave us this awareness, it was for a reason.
We always have to be on the look-out for these oh-so-small but oh-so-telling ifs of yours, Alan ;)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 11:01:38 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12889 on: May 04, 2016, 10:46:42 AM »
... You treat beliefs as fixed and immutable,
It is the ability to believe which is unique to humans.  We have the freedom of choice whether to indulge this ability.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12890 on: May 04, 2016, 10:47:53 AM »
It is the ability to believe which is unique to humans.
How do you know? I see an inchoate ability to believe - that is to say, to adopt what's known as the intentional stance; to have attitudes and states of mind about the world - at work in my dog, and as dogs go she's not the brightest lamp in the lane I can tell you.
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We have the freedom of choice whether to indulge this ability.
I don't.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 10:50:38 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

savillerow

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12891 on: May 04, 2016, 10:50:56 AM »
msg 13377 Shaker Thats a good post. Anyone with a religious belief, if they are honest with themselves would read your post and look at what the heck theyve cobbled together to make a floating wreckage of a manmade  idea. If of course they were honest with themselves.
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12892 on: May 04, 2016, 10:54:00 AM »
Thank you sav - nice to see you around again.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12893 on: May 04, 2016, 10:58:51 AM »
Are Monkeys self aware and have souls?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Go8tnl21MU
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12894 on: May 04, 2016, 11:08:22 AM »
Anyone with a religious belief, if they are honest with themselves would read your post and look at what the heck theyve cobbled together to make a floating wreckage of a manmade  idea. If of course they were honest with themselves.
You seem to have no concept of how strong a person's Christian faith can be.  Speaking for myself and many fellow Christians, we are perfectly honest with ourselves in saying that nothing in this world can separate us from the love of God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12895 on: May 04, 2016, 11:20:38 AM »
You seem to have no concept of how strong a person's Christian faith can be.
You seem to have no concept of a great many things I'm afraid, Alan, including the fact that strength of belief does not, has never and will never tally with correctness of belief.

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Speaking for myself and many fellow Christians, we are perfectly honest with ourselves in saying that nothing in this world can separate us from the love of God.

... conveniently overlooking the sudden, immediate, unsought and total collapse of belief effectively overnight, of course.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12896 on: May 04, 2016, 11:24:52 AM »
How do you know? I see an inchoate ability to believe - that is to say, to adopt what's known as the intentional stance; to have attitudes and states of mind about the world - at work in my dog ...
So can you imagine your dog ever attending a bible class ?    ::)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12897 on: May 04, 2016, 11:25:04 AM »
You seem to have no concept of how strong a person's Christian faith can be.  Speaking for myself and many fellow Christians, we are perfectly honest with ourselves in saying that nothing in this world can separate us from the love of God.

Do you think monkeys are self aware, and have sense of fair play and fair payment for work done?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12898 on: May 04, 2016, 11:25:29 AM »
So can you imagine your dog ever attending a bible class ?    ::)

I cannot imagine any intelligent being attending one.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12899 on: May 04, 2016, 11:25:59 AM »
You seem to have no concept of how strong a person's Christian faith can be.

You seem to have no concept of how strong a belief can be, even if it is not true. Unless we allow our beliefs to be open to falsification, we all run the risk that they may be false.

Speaking for myself and many fellow Christians, we are perfectly honest with ourselves in saying that nothing in this world can separate us from the love of God.

And there is the problem: I'm guessing there is absolutely no objective evidence and no reasoning that you would accept as falsification of your belief in your god.

With respect belief in your god, you have put yourself beyond reason and evidence.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))