Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3889549 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12975 on: May 06, 2016, 12:10:25 PM »
Incidentally, I find Mary Midgley (the author of the Guardian article) to be a deeply frustrating philosopher. I enjoyed parts of her book “Science and Poetry”, but felt with both book and article that she fails to make a persuasive argument.

In the article specifically for example, she complains first that “we” (ie, presumably, materialists) treat matter as incapable of producing life, whereas I’m not aware that anyone in fact does that. Rather "we" think life to be an emergent property of matter, but not one necessarily deserving of a new, non-materialistic paradigm to investigate and understand it. 

Similarly she complains that we “pretend” that our experience is “just an illusion”. The issue rather though is that we cannot step outside of ourselves to know with any certainty that what we perceive as real objectively is real, so we’re forced to accept the reality we appear to experience using the tools of sense and reason that we have. How real or illusory that model is though seems to me to be unknowable.

That is, rather the pretend we just play the only hand we’re dealt.     

MM also says we need a “new mind-body paradigm, a map that acknowledges the many kinds of things there are in the world and the continuity of evolution”, but that seems to me to be a straw man. Who doesn’t acknowledge those things, and why isn’t it possible to acknowledge them from within the paradigm of materialism?   

She continues: “We must somehow find different, more realistic ways of understanding human beings – and indeed other animals – as the active wholes that they are, rather than pretending to see them as meaningless consignments of chemicals.” Again, that’s a straw man I think – we can perfectly readily see our lives and the lives of others as meaningful within the context of our material selves and the emergent properties we have without needing to invent a wider context to do it, let alone without imputing some kind of universal significance to what we do. 

She continues to refer approvingly to Sheldrake’s complaint that materialism “veto(es) inquiries on topics that don’t suit it, such as unorthodox medicine, let alone religion.” Here she’s properly off the rails I think. Take medicine: the purpose of it is to cure people, and either it does that or it doesn’t. You can’t complain that materialism vetoes it as if in some way but for materialism it could be found to be valid.

Similarly with religion – in part at least it claims certain things to be factually true: “God”, a resurrection etc. These claims are positioned outside a materialistic paradigm, so require some other method to determine their probable truth or otherwise. And that’s the problem: having posited non-material “somethings”, then it’s for the proponents to suggest a method to investigate the claim rather than just to complain that materialistic methods – like science – aren’t up to the job.

And that’s when MM and the posters here alike go all quiet it seems to me.         

She continues: “…unworkable the assumptions behind today's fashionable habits have become…the current popular confidence in certain fixed assumptions – the exaltation of today's science, not as the busy, constantly changing workshop that it actually is but as a final, infallible oracle preaching a crude kind of materialism.”

Such an egregious straw man! Does anyone engaged in science not think to be a “busy, constantly changing workshop”, and who on earth claims it to be a “final, infallible oracle preaching a crude kind of materialism”?

Science “preaches” nothing, but self-avowedly concerns itself only with that which it’s capable of investigating and it certainly doesn’t think its findings to be infallible – indeed fallibility in the form of a falsifiability test is central to its method. What materialism and science actually are is indifferent to claims of the non-material – they’re just so much white noise, and must continue to be until and unless those who propose them finally produce a method of their own to investigate their claims.   
 
To be fair, she does concede: “In trying to replace it he needs, of course, to suggest alternative assumptions. But here the craft of paradigm-building has chronic difficulties.”

Quite so. But it’s still the job of the non-materialist to suggest something at least – and if he fails to do so, why should he be listened to at all?

MM concludes: “That is surely the right way to take new suggestions – not as rival theories competing with current ones but as extra angles, signposts towards wider aspects of the truth. Sheldrake's proposal that we should think of natural regularities as habits rather than as laws is not just an arbitrary fantasy. It is a new analogy, brought in to correct what he sees as a chronic exaggeration of regularity in current science. He shows how carefully research conventions are tailored to smooth out the data, obscuring wide variations by averaging many results, and, in general, how readily scientists accept results that fit in with their conception of eternal laws."

Well fine, but that’s essentially a complaint about the practice of materialistic science – basically confirmation bias - rather than conceptually about the nature of the claims that science can in principle at least investigate. Sure, eliminate the smoothing out of data etc as much as you like – if it happens, that would be a good thing – but much as you may take on this and the other suggestions that would help you not one jot in investigating the supposed non-material. Where on earth would you even begin to do that using anything science has to offer?

MM concludes: “Whether or no we want to follow Sheldrake's further speculations on topics such as morphic resonance, his insistence on the need to attend to possible wider ways of thinking is surely right. And he has been applying it lately in fields that might get him an even wider public. He has been making claims about two forms of perception that are widely reported to work but which mechanists hold to be impossible: a person's sense of being looked at by somebody behind them, and the power of animals – dogs, say – to anticipate their owners' return. Do these things really happen?

Sheldrake handles his enquiries soberly. People and animals do, it seems, quite often perform these unexpected feats, and some of them regularly perform them much better than others, which is perhaps not surprising. He simply concludes that we need to think much harder about such things.”

That’s a bit disingenuous: does she mean, “think harder within the materialistic, scientific paradigm” or “think harder by inventing a new paradigm”?

If the former, fine and dandy; if the latter though, again it’s for the claimants of the non-material to make the running I’d say.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:54:00 PM by bluehillside »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12976 on: May 06, 2016, 01:12:03 PM »

Science “preaches” nothing, but self-avowedly concerns itself only with that which it’s capable of investigating ...
But in investigating the minutia of how things work, do we not miss the obvious purpose behind our existence, divinely revealed to us, that we are here to love and be loved?

I know of a once atheistic scientist who came to realise, after falling in love, that there is more, far more to life than pre defined, deterministic chemical reactions in the brain.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 01:14:26 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12977 on: May 06, 2016, 01:13:38 PM »
But in investigating the minutia of how things work, do we not miss the obvious purpose behind our existence, divinely revealed to us, that we are here to love and be loved.
No. I see no reason to think that anything is divinely revealed. Loving and being loved is a thing that humans - in fact some species of mammal generally, I would go so far as to say - do.

Quote
I know of a once atheistic scientist who came to realise, after falling in love, that there is more, far more to life than pre defined, deterministic chemical reactions in the brain.
We'll have to take your word for that.

Or maybe not ...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 01:20:45 PM by Shaker »
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12978 on: May 06, 2016, 01:17:54 PM »
Anecdotes are go. 
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12979 on: May 06, 2016, 01:22:53 PM »
But in investigating the minutia of how things work, do we not miss the obvious purpose behind our existence, divinely revealed to us, that we are here to love and be loved?

I doubt that many people think that love is not an important part of life. However, despite numerous assertions, you have, rather spectacularly and repeatedly, failed to demonstrate any divine revelation of anything at all....
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12980 on: May 06, 2016, 01:28:43 PM »
I doubt that many people think that love is not an important part of life. However, despite numerous assertions, you have, rather spectacularly and repeatedly, failed to demonstrate any divine revelation of anything at all....
John 13:34
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12981 on: May 06, 2016, 01:30:29 PM »
'Obvious purpose', rather like 'obvious design' is one of those phrases which make me grit my teeth, and I don't mean in pleasure.   How the hell is it it obvious?   

Stars form via an accumulation of dust and gas under gravitational collapse, and eventually produce nuclear fusion.   Then the star has a certain finite life, with various outcomes, hello sun.  (Sorry for the abbreviated nature of this). 

Does this show obvious purpose?
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12982 on: May 06, 2016, 01:32:02 PM »
John 13:34
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
And? That's assertion, not demonstration.

Didn't people love each other before this was written?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12983 on: May 06, 2016, 01:34:42 PM »
'Obvious purpose', rather like 'obvious design' is one of those phrases which make me grit my teeth, and I don't mean in pleasure.   How the hell is it it obvious?   

Stars form via an accumulation of dust and gas under gravitational collapse, and eventually produce nuclear fusion.   Then the star has a certain finite life, with various outcomes, hello sun.  (Sorry for the abbreviated nature of this). 

Does this show obvious purpose?

It strikes me as a kind of sticking plaster attempt to fix the fact that life isn't always kind, Wiggs. Having a shit time? Never mind, Jesus loves you.


floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12984 on: May 06, 2016, 01:37:22 PM »
John 13:34
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

I hope humans manage love much better than god, who seems to be a stranger to the concept!

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12985 on: May 06, 2016, 01:39:29 PM »
It strikes me as a kind of sticking plaster attempt to fix the fact that life isn't always kind, Wiggs. Having a shit time? Never mind, Jesus loves you.

Got cancer?  Never mind, it's all part of the divine tapestry.   
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12986 on: May 06, 2016, 01:43:05 PM »
Got cancer?  Never mind, it's all part of the divine tapestry.

Well yeah, if our 'obvious purpose' is to be loved by God then suffering's a way to test that we really feel it.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12987 on: May 06, 2016, 01:45:44 PM »
Well, we wouldn't be here to love each other, if stars hadn't been formed, and hadn't  also exploded rather spectacularly.   Hence, Christians such as AB would presumably believe that this is divinely organized.   And presumably, the moon is in just the right place, well done, Jesus.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12988 on: May 06, 2016, 01:46:35 PM »
'Obvious purpose', rather like 'obvious design' is one of those phrases which make me grit my teeth, and I don't mean in pleasure.   How the hell is it it obvious?   

Stars form via an accumulation of dust and gas under gravitational collapse, and eventually produce nuclear fusion.   Then the star has a certain finite life, with various outcomes, hello sun.  (Sorry for the abbreviated nature of this). 

Does this show obvious purpose?
For those who experience it, love may become the pinnacle of human experience and with this experience comes the realisation that it is the purpose behind our existence.

Contrasted with this is the cold scientific analysis which seeks to explain how everything came about by random forces acting on unconscious material elements, leading to the conclusion that there is no purpose in anything.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12989 on: May 06, 2016, 01:46:53 PM »
I doubt that many people think that love is not an important part of life. However, despite numerous assertions, you have, rather spectacularly and repeatedly, failed to demonstrate any divine revelation of anything at all....
John 13:34
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

One more assertion. One more failure to demonstrate divine revelation.      ::)
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12990 on: May 06, 2016, 01:48:18 PM »
For those who experience it, love may become the pinnacle of human experience and with this experience comes the realisation that it is the purpose behind our existence.

Contrasted with this is the cold scientific analysis which seeks to explain how everything came about by random forces acting on unconscious material elements, leading to the conclusion that there is no purpose in anything.

Hello?  You didn't answer my question.   Are stars formed by divine plan?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12991 on: May 06, 2016, 01:53:11 PM »
AB,

Quote
But in investigating the minutia of how things work, do we not miss the obvious purpose behind our existence, divinely revealed to us, that we are here to love and be loved?

Science is concerned with much more than the minutiae, and claiming to "miss" something that you've been given no reason to think exists in the first place is just begging the question - yet another of your basic errors in reasoning.

If you think you are right nonetheless, then finally build a logical bridge from your personal opinion on the matter to demonstrating as truths for anyone else:

1. That there is a "divine";

2. That it "revealed" anything; and

3. That's its method of revelation - eg, a book - is accurate.
 
Quote
I know of a once atheistic scientist who came to realise, after falling in love, that there is more, far more to life than pre defined, deterministic chemical reactions in the brain.

He or she came to believe rather than to "realise", and even so - so what? Scientists get things wrong too sometimes, especially when they step outside their fields of expertise.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 02:01:43 PM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12992 on: May 06, 2016, 01:58:52 PM »
AB,

Quote
For those who experience it, love may become the pinnacle of human experience and with this experience comes the realisation that it is the purpose behind our existence.

Contrasted with this is the cold scientific analysis which seeks to explain how everything came about by random forces acting on unconscious material elements, leading to the conclusion that there is no purpose in anything.

As someone once said, flowers are no less pretty for knowing how photosynthesis works. "Scientific analysis" adds to and enhances our experience of the world - if you think it renders your experience "cold" that's more a reflection of your limited imagination than it is of science. It also says nothing to whether or not the science is accurate by the way, however unappealing you personally may find the consequences to be.

Oh, and lives can be perfectly purposeful within a materialistic paradigm thanks. It's just that some of us don't overreach into the solipsistic by pretending that what matters to us must have some universal or divine authorship.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 02:07:50 PM by bluehillside »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12993 on: May 06, 2016, 02:24:34 PM »
Hello?  You didn't answer my question.   Are stars formed by divine plan?
The initial conditions of this universe appear to have been set within incredibly narrow limits to allow stars to form, so my answer has to be a big Yes
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12994 on: May 06, 2016, 02:49:10 PM »
AB,

Quote
The initial conditions of this universe appear to have been set within incredibly narrow limits to allow stars to form, so my answer has to be a big Yes

So just to be clear, this "God" of yours decided to create a universe around 14 billion years ago.

The He waited around for 380,000 years so the temperature could drops enough for the protons and neutrons to begin capturing electrons, and for light to travel freely through space.

Then he sat on his hands for 30 million years until stars and some heavy elements appeared.

After that, He thought he'd hang on until 200 million years had passed so that the Milky Way could form, and shortly after the Earth.

Then, after some 10 billion years, He decided that life on Earth could finally begin - probably by having harsh solar radiation and lightning act on a primordial soup of organic material to kick-start it, only just as single-cell organisms.

Still not bored, after 11 billion years He caused oxygen to accumulates in the atmosphere of the Earth so that animals could breathe for the first time.

Finally, after some 13.5 billion years He decided that humans could evolve in Africa.

Why would you think that a God capable of anything would do all that so as to appear exactly as it would if there was no god whatsoever, instead of - ooh, I dunno - just popping it all into existence at the same time when he was a bit quiet anyway, maybe on a wet Wednesday afternoon half-day closing?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 02:55:19 PM by bluehillside »
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12995 on: May 06, 2016, 03:08:48 PM »
AB,

As someone once said, flowers are no less pretty for knowing how photosynthesis works. "Scientific analysis" adds to and enhances our experience of the world - if you think it renders your experience "cold" that's more a reflection of your limited imagination than it is of science. It also says nothing to whether or not the science is accurate by the way, however unappealing you personally may find the consequences to be.

Oh, and lives can be perfectly purposeful within a materialistic paradigm thanks. It's just that some of us don't overreach into the solipsistic by pretending that what matters to us must have some universal or divine authorship.


I couldn't agree more, Blue.

Perhaps that someone was Richard Feynman, who said:

Quote
I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12996 on: May 06, 2016, 03:21:18 PM »
Enki,

Quote
Perhaps that someone was Richard Feynman, who said:...

Thanks for this - it probably was RF. He makes the point very well too I think.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12997 on: May 06, 2016, 03:37:40 PM »
I expect AB's response will not be immediate, because it will have to be put through the filter that extracts fact and leaves only woolly, smothering fluffiness.

suffocating is probably a better word than smothering
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 03:40:35 PM by SusanDoris »
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12998 on: May 06, 2016, 03:43:15 PM »
The initial conditions of this universe appear to have been set within incredibly narrow limits to allow stars to form, so my answer has to be a big Yes
Nope. Other way round. Stars form because the initial conditions were such to allow star formation, not that the conditions were jiggled with so that stars could form.

You do understand the difference, right?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12999 on: May 06, 2016, 03:52:37 PM »
For those who experience it, love may become the pinnacle of human experience and with this experience comes the realisation that it is the purpose behind our existence.

Contrasted with this is the cold scientific analysis which seeks to explain how everything came about by random forces acting on unconscious material elements, leading to the conclusion that there is no purpose in anything.

I don't understand this. Why do you think that an understanding of science renders love meaningless? Existence may be random but we can take responsibility for what we do with it.

I see little purpose in a life that thinks what happens when we are dead matters more than what we do with life, but each to their own.