Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

I expect AB's response will not be immediate

No, but I can have a good stab at telling you what it will be.

[wigginhall]

I don't understand this. Why do you think that an understanding of science renders love meaningless? Existence may be random but we can take responsibility for what we do with it.

I see little purpose in a life that thinks what happens when we are dead matters more than what we do with life, but each to their own.

I think it means that humans aren't capable of working out purposes for themselves, they have to be told by Big Daddy SkyTrainer, or if you like, Baby Son SkyTrainer, what their purpose is.   Same with morals, isn't it?  We're too stupid to formulate moral principles, so BDST or BSST tell us what's good and what's bad.

[Shaker]

Contrasted with this is the cold scientific analysis which seeks to explain how everything came about by random forces acting on unconscious material elements, leading to the conclusion that there is no purpose in anything.

Although he was talking about pseudiscience, the preceding reminded me of a quote from Isaac Asimov and seems to fit Alan's mentality:

Inspect every piece of pseudoscience and you will find a security blanket, a thumb to suck, a skirt to hold. What does the scientist have to offer in exchange? Uncertainty! Insecurity!

Asimov of course was praising uncertainty and insecurity. (Which reminds me that Alan Watts wrote a book called The Wisdom of Insecurity).

[ekim]

Hello, God here.  I am omnipresent.   13,500 posts and you still haven't found me.  It's a good game, it's a good game.  Now stop searching.

[Rhiannon]

I think it means that humans aren't capable of working out purposes for themselves, they have to be told by Big Daddy SkyTrainer, or if you like, Baby Son SkyTrainer, what their purpose is.   Same with morals, isn't it?  We're too stupid to formulate moral principles, so BDST or BSST tell us what's good and what's bad.

Except they don't, do they? People who believe that they know the mind of God tell us, with rather disasterous consequences for individuals, for humanity and for the planet as a whole.

[Rhiannon]

Asimov of course was praising uncertainty and insecurity. (Which reminds me that Alan Watts wrote a book called The Wisdom of Insecurity).

Being able to live with uncetainty is essential for good mental health. Religion often encourages the opposite - people with some forms of OCD are recommended to stop religious practice because the ritual becomes the problem - say these prayers, wear this item and my loved ones will be safe. It seems to keep many people infantilised - say the right prayers and you're safe, believe this and you won't die. Don't bother engaging in life, just stay in the nursery.

[wigginhall]

Being able to live with uncetainty is essential for good mental health. Religion often encourages the opposite - people with some forms of OCD are recommended to stop religious practice because the ritual becomes the problem - say these prayers, wear this item and my loved ones will be safe. It seems to keep many people infantilised - say the right prayers and you're safe, believe this and you won't die. Don't bother engaging in life, just stay in the nursery.

Very interesting.  Freud wrote about this over a 100 years ago, the connection between 'obsessional neurosis' and religious ritual.   The ritual is a kind of defensive measure, to protect one against the feared thing that might happen, often punishment, or loss of control, or I suppose, pleasure.   

You also get a link with guilt - I am a miserable sinner - and also repression, I must squish down my instinctual search for pleasure, because that is BAAAD. 

It doesn't mean that the whole of religion is neurotic, but the similarities with neuroses are striking.   

[Rhiannon]

Very interesting.  Freud wrote about this over a 100 years ago, the connection between 'obsessional neurosis' and religious ritual.   The ritual is a kind of defensive measure, to protect one against the feared thing that might happen, often punishment, or loss of control, or I suppose, pleasure.   

You also get a link with guilt - I am a miserable sinner - and also repression, I must squish down my instinctual search for pleasure, because that is BAAAD. 

It doesn't mean that the whole of religion is neurotic, but the similarities with neuroses are striking.

Yes, this makes me think of the parents that lock up their gay children to save them from 'sinning' and other abuses carried out by families in order to 'save' their offspring.

The guilt thing is a humdinger - an expert on mental health I read not so long (can't think who, read such a lot on this) said that low self esteem is at the root of much of the anxiety and depression people have. Well, rrligion's reslly helpful there - feel guilty for wanting things, feel guilty for having things, feel guilty for making mistakes, feel guilty for geing alive. And Jesus loves you but you're so shit his dad had to kill him before you're allowed to join the party.

Not remotely dysfunctional. 

[wigginhall]

When I was working (in therapy), I kept meaning to write a book about guilt, as it is so mega, so pervasive.   However, didn't get round to it, I am very very bad, lazy.   

Some people argue that religious ritual helps people with guilt, as it says, you are forgiven, however, on the other hand it reinforces it, esp. Protestantism, which seemed to take a ferocious turn, for some reason.   Although the Catholics could also be fierce.

There's also the issue of control, as the church used to have a kind of monopoly of these things, via confession and so on.  Thank goodness it has been secularized. 

[wigginhall]

Just remembering so many people I met at work, who seemed scarred by a religious upbringing, which told them that they were sinners.   Love here seemed conditional, not unconditional.    But they could never shake off that self-loathing.

[Shaker]

Because usually the imprinting happens so early on in life and comes from authority figures it's an uphill job to get rid of it, wigs

[Alan Burns]

When I was working (in therapy), I kept meaning to write a book about guilt, as it is so mega, so pervasive.   However, didn't get round to it, I am very very bad, lazy.   

Some people argue that religious ritual helps people with guilt, as it says, you are forgiven, however, on the other hand it reinforces it, esp. Protestantism, which seemed to take a ferocious turn, for some reason.   Although the Catholics could also be fierce.

There's also the issue of control, as the church used to have a kind of monopoly of these things, via confession and so on.  Thank goodness it has been secularized.

People often criticise the church (particularly the Catholic church) for causing guilt and all its associated problems.  But my personal experience from within the church indicates that people can and do change for the better with the help of God's grace, thus removing the cause of guilt.

[Shaker]

People often criticise the church (particularly the Catholic church) for causing guilt and all its associated problems.  But my personal experience from within the church indicates that people can and do change for the better with the help of God's grace, thus removing the cause of guilt.

This sounds to me like some snake oil peddler next to his cart flogging you his wares as a cure for the condition he's just convinced you that you've got.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

So just to be clear, this "God" of yours decided to create a universe around 14 billion years ago.

The He waited around for 380,000 years so the temperature could drops enough for the protons and neutrons to begin capturing electrons, and for light to travel freely through space.

Then he sat on his hands for 30 million years until stars and some heavy elements appeared.

After that, He thought he'd hang on until 200 million years had passed so that the Milky Way could form, and shortly after the Earth.

Then, after some 10 billion years, He decided that life on Earth could finally begin - probably by having harsh solar radiation and lightning act on a primordial soup of organic material to kick-start it, only just as single-cell organisms.

Still not bored, after 11 billion years He caused oxygen to accumulates in the atmosphere of the Earth so that animals could breathe for the first time.

Finally, after some 13.5 billion years He decided that humans could evolve in Africa.

Why would you think that a God capable of anything would do all that so as to appear exactly as it would if there was no god whatsoever, instead of - ooh, I dunno - just popping it all into existence at the same time when he was a bit quiet anyway, maybe on a wet Wednesday afternoon half-day closing?

So Hillside the universe came into being so many years ago. But why? Statistics, which you are quite keen on favour non being , don't they.

And then of course everything which occurs cosmically is there at the beginning, namely the ability to be hot and cool down etc......It seems it was all there at this statistically non favoured coming into being.

And what was the precursor to all this? I think you are turd polishing some assumptions here.
Not least that if there is a God, he should be like you.......ha ha ha.

[Alan Burns]

This sounds to me like some snake oil peddler next to his cart flogging you his wares as a cure for the condition he's just convinced you that you've got.

I recall John Newton's famous words, based on his own life story:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

I know of so many personal witness stories about how God's amazing grace changed their lives.  Real stories about real people and the reality of God's saving grace.

[ippy]

I recall John Newton's famous words, based on his own life story:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

I know of so many personal witness stories about how God's amazing grace changed their lives.  Real stories about real people and the reality of God's saving grace.

Well of course, A B and that's all you will get is unsupported, unsopportable stories.

Their's plenty of people that can write a fancy poem, what's so special about your example, it doesn't prove anything; sorry Alan it's all in your immagination.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

I recall John Newton's famous words, based on his own life story:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

I know of so many personal witness stories about how God's amazing grace changed their lives.  Real stories about real people and the reality of God's saving grace.

Careful, Alan, you're beginning to look like a parody.

[Stranger]

So Hillside the universe came into being so many years ago. But why?

And theists think their god just exists, but why?

At least there is evidence for the universe and its history....

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And theists think their god just exists, but why?

At least there is evidence for the universe and its history....

Doesn't help you though.

[Stranger]

Doesn't help you though.

To do what...?

[torridon]

Being able to live with uncetainty is essential for good mental health. Religion often encourages the opposite - people with some forms of OCD are recommended to stop religious practice because the ritual becomes the problem - say these prayers, wear this item and my loved ones will be safe. It seems to keep many people infantilised - say the right prayers and you're safe, believe this and you won't die. Don't bother engaging in life, just stay in the nursery.

Smart post 

[ippy]

Yes, this makes me think of the parents that lock up their gay children to save them from 'sinning' and other abuses carried out by families in order to 'save' their offspring.

The guilt thing is a humdinger - an expert on mental health I read not so long (can't think who, read such a lot on this) said that low self esteem is at the root of much of the anxiety and depression people have. Well, rrligion's reslly helpful there - feel guilty for wanting things, feel guilty for having things, feel guilty for making mistakes, feel guilty for geing alive. And Jesus loves you but you're so shit his dad had to kill him before you're allowed to join the party.

Not remotely dysfunctional. 

Rhi, look up Dorothy Rowe the Psychologist on Wikki and just come out with it, confess, how long have you been her understudy, I don't want any evasive half baked answer, I'm not expecting any half baked answer?

ippy 

[Sassy]

Sassy,

It's neither insult nor sarcasm. Alan consistently resorts to personal opinions to argue for objective truths for the rest of us - about the limits of what science could discover, about his incredulity at evolution requiring no blueprints etc. Some merely points out that it's self-important to assume that his personal opinions should be considered persuasive for that purpose. 

And pretty much all the arguments that undo Alan's claims stand in any case - which is why he just ignores them in favour of further unqualified personal opinions.

No, Some was entirely logical: Alan's personal opinions say nothing to objective truths for the rest of us, and it's self-important of him to think that they do.

I will give you a truth for free.

You see Alan as you do because he is a confessed Christ believer.
Your opinion of Alan is based more on his Faith THAN what he is actually saying.
In the forethoughts of your mind when you answer, you are somehow seeing a battle with his faith taking place.
Are Alans opinions of those he has received teachings in science from less valued because they are educated men of faith?
The truth is, with or without faith... if your education does not match that of your teachers who is to say which of you are right?

Jesus Christ is the one Alan believes to be the saviour from God.
Does that mean people with faith somehow hold different truths or cannot know or understand science?

The truth is there is far more happening and with less scientific explanation in the world of Christ and faith.

Outside your own beings there is nothing you can do to prove you have the truth when it comes to science.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

I will give you a truth for free.

You see Alan as you do because he is a confessed Christ believer.

Actually we "see Alan as we do" because when he attempts to argue for his beliefs being well-founded and thus true for the rest of us too, he collapses immediately into very bad reasoning to support him.

There's no a priori problem with him being a "Christ believer" as you put it, but there is a problem when he pitches up here to evangelise for it because he's incapable of making an argument to suggest that he's right. As indeed are you.

[Alan Burns]

Well of course, A B and that's all you will get is unsupported, unsopportable stories.

Their's plenty of people that can write a fancy poem, what's so special about your example, it doesn't prove anything; sorry Alan it's all in your immagination.

ippy

Dear Ippy,

For your information, John Newton worked as a captain on the slave ships.  When he embraced Christianity, he saw the evil in what he had done, and wrote the song Amazing Grace.  He went on to join a group of Christians, led by William Wilberforce, who campaigned to abolish the slave trade.  Despite fierce opposition from those who profited from the trade, they succeeded in getting this dreadful practice abolished.

The Christian faith is not about guilt, but ultimately about love and forgiveness.