Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

Len,
May I quote your story as an example.

It was about fifteen years ago when Len and I were actively exchanging views on several forums, but some of the forums drifted into oblivion and I stopped posting.   I recall Len suggesting that I try a new BBC forum, but I felt I had had enough.  I still had Len's old email address and after a couple of years I felt this still small voice asking me to contact Len, so I sent an email with a new personal witness story which I felt God was asking me to share.  The email was returned saying not a valid address.  I tried looking at a few old forums, but could find no recent posts from him.  I knew he was getting on a bit, and I confess to thinking he had either passed away or become too ill to post.  So I thought that was that.

About ten years later, I felt the still small voice again asking me to try and contact Len.  My instinct told me that there was no point.  If he was still alive, he would be well into his eighties and well past the age of most forum posters.  But I obeyed the voice and tried again, and to my delight I found he was still alive and a member of this forum.  I joined up and conversed with Len, exchanging a few PMs, and discovered that his views had not changed, and I was assured by him that he would never change.  At that time I had not posted on the forum, and I just left it after sending the PMs.  A year later the voice was still there, telling me to post on the Forum.  By then, Len informed me that he had virtually given up posting and was leaving it to the younger generation to "spread the word".  But the voice persisted, and I began posting, and Len joined in again!

So against all my instincts, the still small voice wins and I am still posting.  If I did not pray, I am certain that the still small voice would not be heard.  And I am also certain that God has something very special in store for for Len.

Alan, I really do have a special place in my heart for you ... you are a sweetie, and this post made me smile fondly. 

[Leonard James]

Shouldn't you have just said 'Get thee behind me Satan'.   (sorry Len).

BEAST! 

[Dicky Underpants]

I think it highly likely that Alan is more spiritual and less 'airy fairy' than me.  When someone is called, there must be signs - on the other hand, Alan hasn't said he personally has felt called to do anything dramatic so maybe he isn't the person to ask.  I was just interested.

I get the impression that Alan is continually on the lookout for 'signs' and 'meaningful' coincidences. I used to do so myself, trying to reinforce my less specific spiritual view (i.e. not restricted to Christianity).

I'd read a fair amount of Jung, and he made quite a lot out of this sort of thing. Now I just contemplate the infinite number of coincidences that don't happen

[Alan Burns]

I get the impression that Alan is continually on the lookout for 'signs' and 'meaningful' coincidences. I used to do so myself, trying to reinforce my less specific spiritual view (i.e. not restricted to Christianity).

I'd read a fair amount of Jung, and he made quite a lot out of this sort of thing. Now I just contemplate the infinite number of coincidences that don't happen

I do not look for signs, and my faith is not based on perceived coincidences.  I just notice them when they occur at key moments in my life.  My own faith is primarily built around prayer, scripture and Christian fellowship.

[Leonard James]

I do not look for signs, and my faith is not based on perceived coincidences.  I just notice them when they occur at key moments in my life.  My own faith is primarily built around prayer, scripture and Christian fellowship.

Which is why your conviction becomes stronger and stronger. That is the way all religions work.

[ippy]

I do not look for signs, and my faith is not based on perceived coincidences.  I just notice them when they occur at key moments in my life.  My own faith is primarily built around prayer, scripture and Christian fellowship.

Apart from making friends, what a pointless/usless waste of your life, I suppose at least it is your life to do with as you please.

ippy

[Sassy]

Exactly, god approves of slavery and is a mass murderer.

It is too difficult for close minds to see how slavery enabled the Son of God to come into the world.

How can he murder a soul which cannot be killed?

If you insist on making statements void of truth and understanding then you cannot expect any Christian to take you seriously.

[Alan Burns]

Searching for proof of God by scientific methodology can be likened to searching for the true origin and meaning of a written word by analysing the chemical compounds of ink and paper.  Yes, we know what comprises ink and paper, and we know how they came into existence, but this knowledge gives no indication of the meaning of the written word or how it was conceived.

The evidence for God lies beyond the physical analysis of our material properties.  We need to look beyond these to see our true origins and purpose.

[Maeght]

Searching for proof of God by scientific methodology can be likened to searching for the true origin and meaning of a written word by analysing the chemical compounds of ink and paper.  Yes, we know what comprises ink and paper, and we know how they came into existence, but this knowledge gives no indication of the meaning of the written word or how it was conceived.

The evidence for God lies beyond the physical analysis of our material properties.  We need to look beyond these to see our true origins and purpose.

Like our imagination you mean?

[floo]

It is too difficult for close minds to see how slavery enabled the Son of God to come into the world.

How can he murder a soul which cannot be killed?

If you insist on making statements void of truth and understanding then you cannot expect any Christian to take you seriously.

[Brownie]

Apart from making friends, what a pointless/usless waste of your life, I suppose at least it is your life to do with as you please.

ippy

I was wondering about this, the "making friends" bit.  Do Christians who are part of a Christian fellowship really make friends, I mean long term ones?  Supposing they lose interest in the faith or have a crisis of faith that takes them away from it, do their friends remain friends?  I don't think so.
"No man is an island" said John Donne but there are many connotations to that statement.  Sometimes it's better to be alone, not to ignore others or be unfriendly or unhelpful, but to work out your faith on your own.

[Leonard James]

Searching for proof of God by scientific methodology can be likened to searching for the true origin and meaning of a written word by analysing the chemical compounds of ink and paper.  Yes, we know what comprises ink and paper, and we know how they came into existence, but this knowledge gives no indication of the meaning of the written word or how it was conceived.

The evidence for God lies beyond the physical analysis of our material properties.  We need to look beyond these to see our true origins and purpose.

Alan,

EVERY scrap of 'evidence' you come up with is only proof that some human minds can be misled to believe the most unlikely stories. This applies particularly to religious stories.

[torridon]

Searching for proof of God by scientific methodology can be likened to searching for the true origin and meaning of a written word by analysing the chemical compounds of ink and paper.  Yes, we know what comprises ink and paper, and we know how they came into existence, but this knowledge gives no indication of the meaning of the written word or how it was conceived.

The evidence for God lies beyond the physical analysis of our material properties.  We need to look beyond these to see our true origins and purpose.

In so far as 'God' is taken to mean a sort of de facto anchor point or central fount of systems of meaning and values for a person's inner psychological mindscape, this is probably fair enough.

In so far as 'God' is claimed to be some external being with its own objective reality and particular properties, then such claims as those rightfully attract scrutiny with objective methods.

For most of human history the question of the objective existence of god or gods was beyond question, but we have now asked enough questions and gained enough knowledge about the workings of our world to question the god premise, and if we find no objective evidence for an objective god is it right to carry on regardless?  Maybe we need to learn to construct systems of meaning and values for a godless cosmos in order to be truer to the understanding that our questioning has delivered us.

[ippy]

I was wondering about this, the "making friends" bit.  Do Christians who are part of a Christian fellowship really make friends, I mean long term ones?  Supposing they lose interest in the faith or have a crisis of faith that takes them away from it, do their friends remain friends?  I don't think so.
"No man is an island" said John Donne but there are many connotations to that statement.  Sometimes it's better to be alone, not to ignore others or be unfriendly or unhelpful, but to work out your faith on your own.

A group referring to themselves as christians, no doubt make very good long lasting friendships, why would there be anything supernatural involved especially as there is no evidence that would support such an idea, (if there is any tell me), so it stands to reason events involved with christianity would be pointless, other than of course the friendship.

Having faith in christianity is having faith in nonsense to me.

I very seldom go out of the house without a copy of this Messrs Donne you mention, in my pocket, it's truly beautiful it means a lot to me.

Shame his ill health put a stop to his career.

ippy     

[Alan Burns]

Alan,

EVERY scrap of 'evidence' you come up with is only proof that some human minds can be misled to believe the most unlikely stories. This applies particularly to religious stories.

Len

Human history shows that belief in God is perfectly natural for civilised human beings.  What has happened in the last century is that humans have discovered a little bit about how things work, and this has caused a small minority of the human race to extrapolate this knowledge into trying to explain how there can't be a God.  You need to realise the limitations of what our scientific knowledge can explain.  It can only explain the immediate consequences of specific events.  It does not explain the ultimate source of all events. 

[Gordon]

Len

Human history shows that belief in God is perfectly natural for civilised human beings.  What has happened in the last century is that humans have discovered a little bit about how things work, and this has caused a small minority of the human race to extrapolate this knowledge into trying to explain how there can't be a God.

Nope - I've never tried to explain why there can't be a God: I'm simply rejected the arguments of those such as yourself as being either incoherent or fallacious.

You need to realise the limitations of what our scientific knowledge can explain.  It can only explain the immediate consequences of specific events.

It can explain events that have yet to happen based on evidence that can be extrapolated: thus I expect planes to fly tomorrow on the same basis that that have done so today.

It does not explain the ultimate source of all events.

There are possibly several fallacies to be extracted from this short sentence.

[torridon]

Len

Human history shows that belief in God is perfectly natural for civilised human beings.  What has happened in the last century is that humans have discovered a little bit about how things work, and this has caused a small minority of the human race to extrapolate this knowledge into trying to explain how there can't be a God.  You need to realise the limitations of what our scientific knowledge can explain.  It can only explain the immediate consequences of specific events.  It does not explain the ultimate source of all events.

That's not a good reading of the history of ideas. What has happened over time is that we have slowly learned more structured and disciplined methods of enquiry; we have moved away from revealed knowledge owned and disseminated by authority structures towards open knowledge derived through empirical and detailed observational means.  This is not just in science, it cuts across all disciplines from history to the legal system to government, now we value evidence based critical reasoning because it has shown itself a superior means of enquiry.  We have set the bar higher than it used to be; for us to acknowledge something as true now it is par the course to show evidence in support it should withstand detailed scrutiny and testing where possible.  The God idea is still with us, it is ingrained into all the world's cultures and into the psychological dispositions of many, but there is no evidence by modern standards to consider it a serious hypothesis. 

[Leonard James]

Len

Human history shows that belief in God is perfectly natural for civilised human beings.  What has happened in the last century is that humans have discovered a little bit about how things work, and this has caused a small minority of the human race to extrapolate this knowledge into trying to explain how there can't be a God.  You need to realise the limitations of what our scientific knowledge can explain.  It can only explain the immediate consequences of specific events.  It does not explain the ultimate source of all events.

You seem to overlook the fact that science has uncovered the explanation for most natural occurrences ... explanations which were previously unknown, and attributed to "God".

As far as the ultimate 'source of all events' is concerned, we still know nothing definite about it. The guesses made by various religions, rather than helping to find the answer, muddy the water and impede sensible investigation.

Fortunately, we are slowly extricating ourselves from such juvenile musings and realising that if the answer can be found, science will find it.

[Alan Burns]

...... but there is no evidence by modern standards to consider it a serious hypothesis.

Yet despite the numerous predictions of the demise of religion since Darwin's publication, Christianity is still on the increase.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Yet despite the numerous predictions of the demise of religion since Darwin's publication, Christianity is still on the increase.

1. Where is it on the increase?

2. What relationship do you think there to be between the popularity of an idea and how likely it is to be true?

[torridon]

Yet despite the numerous predictions of the demise of religion since Darwin's publication, Christianity is still on the increase.

Argumentum ad populum. 

If you want to go down that road then bear in mind that globally it is Islam that is actually on the rise, often at the expense of Christianity, so are you going to claim Islam to be the 'true' religion as evidenced by current increase in popularity ?

[trippymonkey]

Hitler was massively popular at one time, no ?!!!??

[Alan Burns]

Argumentum ad populum. 

If you want to go down that road then bear in mind that globally it is Islam that is actually on the rise, often at the expense of Christianity, so are you going to claim Islam to be the 'true' religion as evidenced by current increase in popularity ?

The increase in Islam is mainly due to a high birth rate amongst Muslims.  Adult conversions are much higher for Christianity.

Your claim that Christianity is no longer considered to be a serious hypothesis is somewhat of an insult to the many highly intelligent Christians who have come into the faith.  Amongst my personal Christian acquaintances are a professor of psychology who works for the NHS and a quantum physicist who also plays rock guitar.

[Brownie]

A group referring to themselves as christians, no doubt make very good long lasting friendships, why would there be anything supernatural involved especially as there is no evidence that would support such an idea, (if there is any tell me), so it stands to reason events involved with christianity would be pointless, other than of course the friendship.

Having faith in christianity is having faith in nonsense to me.

I very seldom go out of the house without a copy of this Messrs Donne you mention, in my pocket, it's truly beautiful it means a lot to me.

Shame his ill health put a stop to his career.

ippy   

Yes, Donne's work is lovely and he was an interesting character.

I've known many people who have been dropped by so-called friends from church, if they decide they no longer want to attend and aren't sure what they believe any more.  I find that very odd and unkind because a friend is a friend regardless of what they believe, or don't believe.  However I've come across it.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, Donne's work is lovely and he was an interesting character.

I've known many people who have been dropped by so-called friends from church, if they decide they no longer want to attend and aren't sure what they believe any more.  I find that very odd and unkind because a friend is a friend regardless of what they believe, or don't believe.  However I've come across it.

Some of my friends have lost their faith, but we are still friends and I pray for them every day.