Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

The increase in Islam is mainly due to a high birth rate amongst Muslims.  Adult conversions are much higher for Christianity.

Your claim that Christianity is no longer considered to be a serious hypothesis is somewhat of an insult to the many highly intelligent Christians who have come into the faith.  Amongst my personal Christian acquaintances are a professor of psychology who works for the NHS and a quantum physicist who also plays rock guitar.

OK, so you have some insight into the naivety of playing a straight numbers game.  Flat numbers are mostly indicative of deeper underlying demographic population trends and religions being cultural constructs sway with those winds.  There are sociological studies that give better insight into the relationships between such things as socio-economic status, education levels and religious observance, but I fear you will not like the broad conclusions of such research, and you will fall back on cherry picked anecdotes, as above, to support your position. Of course there will always be individuals who buck broad trends, humans are nothing if not diverse and complex, and no doubt there are some scientists who are also religious, but that does not equate to an equivalence between a religious claim and a scientific hypothesis.  If/when we have some scientific strength evidence in support of a sentient universe creator then cosmologists might build a god theory out of that but we aren't there currently.  Many people seem to need a god to be there in order to make sense of their lives, but that isn't the same thing as evidence.

[Gordon]

Your claim that Christianity is no longer considered to be a serious hypothesis is somewhat of an insult to the many highly intelligent Christians who have come into the faith.

Why is it a personal insult?

That Christianity it isn't a serious hypothesis is primarily a position held by assessing the arguments presented for Christianity and finding these to be bad arguments, such as where they are obviously fallacious in one way or another, or where what is said by Christians is simply too incoherent to be meaningful.
 

Amongst my personal Christian acquaintances are a professor of psychology who works for the NHS and a quantum physicist who also plays rock guitar.

So what?

That intelligent and talented people may be Christians isn't objective evidence that Christianity is true but is their personal take on the matter, hence perhaps your comment about them feeling insulted. Then there are those other people who are similarly intelligent or talented who don't hold the same opinion regarding Christianity: but then you think they are wrong in spite of them being intelligent and talented, so your position does seem inconsistent and flawed.

[Alan Burns]

Why is it a personal insult?

That Christianity it isn't a serious hypothesis is primarily a position held by assessing the arguments presented for Christianity and finding these to be bad arguments, such as where they are obviously fallacious in one way or another, or where what is said by Christians is simply too incoherent to be meaningful.
 
So what?

That intelligent and talented people may be Christians isn't objective evidence that Christianity is true but is their personal take on the matter, hence perhaps your comment about them feeling insulted. Then there are those other people who are similarly intelligent or talented who don't hold the same opinion regarding Christianity: but then you think they are wrong in spite of them being intelligent and talented, so your position does seem inconsistent and flawed.

Ultimately I believe that faith is a gift from God, but it is a gift which many people have not fully opened yet.  My aim is to encourage people to take a step in faith, and hopefully discover the most precious gift they could ever possess.

[Gordon]

Ultimately I believe that faith is a gift from God, but it is a gift which many people have not fully opened yet.  My aim is to encourage people to take a step in faith, and hopefully discover the most precious gift they could ever possess.

As I said, this is your personal belief/opinion - other opinions are available.

[torridon]

Ultimately I believe that faith is a gift from God, but it is a gift which many people have not fully opened yet.  My aim is to encourage people to take a step in faith, and hopefully discover the most precious gift they could ever possess.

If faith is a gift from God then likewise critical thinking

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Ultimately I believe that faith is a gift from God, but it is a gift which many people have not fully opened yet.  My aim is to encourage people to take a step in faith, and hopefully discover the most precious gift they could ever possess.

Which is fine, but only provided you're just as open to finding that your arguments are wrong and your belief is probably therefore misplaced.

Oh, and broadly the research shows that Christianity (and other faiths) tends to decline as educational standards improve and vice versa, despite your anecdotal efforts to imply the opposite.     

[Brownie]

Some of my friends have lost their faith, but we are still friends and I pray for them every day.

You are a good person and good friend Alan.  Not everyone is like you.

[floo]

Alan is one of the good guys , although I will never in a million years see matters of religion the way he does.

[Sebastian Toe]

The increase in Islam is mainly due to a high birth rate amongst Muslims. 

All part of Allah's plan then!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Brownie,

You are a good person and good friend Alan.  Not everyone is like you.

It's entirely possible to think yourself to be a good person and to do more harm than good. As a general rule those who are indifferent to sound reasoning but who nonetheless seek to force on others their personal faith opinions as if they were facts are often such people

[Alan Burns]

Brownie,

It's entirely possible to think yourself to be a good person and to do more harm than good. As a general rule those who are indifferent to sound reasoning but who nonetheless seek to force on others their personal faith opinions as if they were facts are often such people

But the "sound" reasoning used by the likes of Richard Dawkins has done the human race far more harm than you could ever imagine.

[SusanDoris]

But the "sound" reasoning used by the likes of Richard Dawkins has done the human race far more harm than you could ever imagine.

Promotion of beliefs which have zero facts to back them up is what continues to be the greatest cause of harm.

If you agree that RD's reasoning is sound, why on earth do you think it is causing harm?  Name one thing he has said which as caused actual harm.

[Maeght]

But the "sound" reasoning used by the likes of Richard Dawkins has done the human race far more harm than you could ever imagine.

Such as?

[Alan Burns]

Promotion of beliefs which have zero facts to back them up is what continues to be the greatest cause of harm.

If you agree that RD's reasoning is sound, why on earth do you think it is causing harm?  Name one thing he has said which as caused actual harm.

I put the word "sound" in quotation marks because it is based on RD's logic, not mine.

People like Dawkins and the recently deceased Hitchens are examples of the modern trend towards aggressive atheism which not only promotes the idea of a Godless world, but openly attacks and tries to ridicule the faith of Christians.  This is harmful because it endangers the eternal salvation of those human souls who are taken in by it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But the "sound" reasoning used by the likes of Richard Dawkins has done the human race far more harm than you could ever imagine.

Naturally then you'll be able to give an example of this sound reasoning by RD that's supposedly done so much harm.

Won't you?

[Sebastian Toe]

This is harmful because it endangers the eternal salvation of those human souls who are taken in by it.

That is only true if your version of reality is true. Other versions are available.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I put the word "sound" in quotation marks because it is based on RD's logic, not mine.

There's no such things RD's logic, or indeed anyone else's. Logic is logic - it stands or not on its merits, but no-one owns it.

People like Dawkins and the recently deceased Hitchens are examples of the modern trend towards aggressive atheism...

Presumably you have an example of his supposed aggressiveness you can share then? In my experience the approach of these people is marked generally by politeness, albeit that those who have their cherished faith beliefs challenged will often respond with false charges of aggressiveness, militancy etc for want of a counter-argument of their own.

... which not only promotes the idea of a Godless world...

It doesn't "promote" that at all; rather it just points out that that's where the logic leads.

...but openly attacks and tries to ridicule the faith of Christians.

Ridicule is fine when the opposing position is ridiculous. You, presumably, would be relaxed about ridiculing my faith in the existence of pixies - and for the same reason.

This is harmful because it endangers the eternal salvation of those human souls who are taken in by it.

And that's called the fallacy of reification - just assuming that your (frankly bizarre) faith beliefs are facts, and making an assertion from that position. That's why sound logic is so important - no matter how much you drive a coach and four through it with statements like that, it undoes you nonetheless. Either engage with it or not, but just ignoring it and pitching your tent on the patch of unreason you prefer leaves the rest of us with no choice but to point and laugh. 

[SusanDoris]

bluehillside

Super reply of course. It's just as well I read yours first, as I might have written, 'Oh, for goodness' sake, what absolute rubbish!' However, I have just been passing the intervening time deleting stuff from mail boxes.

[torridon]

I put the word "sound" in quotation marks because it is based on RD's logic, not mine.

People like Dawkins and the recently deceased Hitchens are examples of the modern trend towards aggressive atheism which not only promotes the idea of a Godless world, but openly attacks and tries to ridicule the faith of Christians.  This is harmful because it endangers the eternal salvation of those human souls who are taken in by it.

Would you rather live in a world without free speech ?  Such a world would be a much poorer place than one where people are free to argue things out in debate.

Do you really think more harm has been done in the name of 'aggressive atheism' than has been done in the name of theism ? I can't call to mind any reports of atheists hacking strangers to death whilst shouting 'No God is Great'.  If we construct a balance account of all the bloodshed and atrocities perpetrated over the centuries in the name of some or other god it isn't going to make for pretty reading.

But these two points pale into significance compared to the implication contained in your last sentence, namely, that you somehow seem to hold dear a god that would freeze people out from 'eternal salvation' whatever that is,  on the basis that they were unlucky enough to have gotten themselves misled in this life, as indeed must have been the vast majority of humans who have ever lived. I would not hold dear such a god for such is despicable beneath contempt.

[wigginhall]

Well, Christians burned people for about a 1000 years, presumably to ensure their eternal salvation, or maybe those watching.   I suppose it was quite persuasive.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

Well, Christians burned people for about a 1000 years, presumably to ensure their eternal salvation, or maybe those watching.   I suppose it was quite persuasive.

I'd sign up!

[Alan Burns]

Would you rather live in a world without free speech ?  Such a world would be a much poorer place than one where people are free to argue things out in debate.

Do you really think more harm has been done in the name of 'aggressive atheism' than has been done in the name of theism ? I can't call to mind any reports of atheists hacking strangers to death whilst shouting 'No God is Great'.  If we construct a balance account of all the bloodshed and atrocities perpetrated over the centuries in the name of some or other god it isn't going to make for pretty reading.

But these two points pale into significance compared to the implication contained in your last sentence, namely, that you somehow seem to hold dear a god that would freeze people out from 'eternal salvation' whatever that is,  on the basis that they were unlucky enough to have gotten themselves misled in this life, as indeed must have been the vast majority of humans who have ever lived. I would not hold dear such a god for such is despicable beneath contempt.

Physical harm is certainly more tangible, but spiritual harm is eternal.  God has the power to save us from evil, but we need the precious gift of faith to tap into this power.  To suggest that we should not need this faith to be saved is trivialising the suffering and death which Jesus endured to bring about our salvation.

[Alan Burns]

Well, Christians burned people for about a 1000 years, presumably to ensure their eternal salvation, or maybe those watching.   I suppose it was quite persuasive.

The Devil is no doubt well pleased when he can coax people into committing these dreadful atrocities and then get people to blame God for it.

[jeremyp]

I put the word "sound" in quotation marks because it is based on RD's logic, not mine.

People like Dawkins and the recently deceased Hitchens are examples of the modern trend towards aggressive atheism which not only promotes the idea of a Godless world, but openly attacks and tries to ridicule the faith of Christians.  This is harmful because it endangers the eternal salvation of those human souls who are taken in by it.

I would argue they are nowhere near as aggressive as the Christians who promoted and are still promoting Christianity.

[Sebastian Toe]

The Devil is no doubt well pleased when he can coax people into committing these dreadful atrocities and then get people to blame God for it.

How does he do that by the way?