Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Simply put, God is the ultimate source of all existence, but of course our human intellect alone could never imagine or deduce what the nature of this source is.  The only way we could know anything about this source is if it made itself known to its creation.  The essential step in making itself known would be to endow this creation with some form of conscious perception, and give it the ability yearn for knowledge of its creator. 

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Luke 11:9–10

That's called the reification fallacy. You just asserted your conclusion ("God is the ultimate source of all existence") and then grounded various statements on it as if you'd demonstrated it. You need to back up. A lot.

What is this "God" of which you speak?

Why do you think He/it exists other than as your personal opinion on the matter? 

What makes you think that narratives written in an old text are necessarily infallible?

Absent arguments in logic, why do you think anyone else should take your personal faith beliefs any more seriously than they should take seriously the personal faith beliefs of anyone else about anything else?

Only once you can finally answer these and the other questions that confront you do we need trouble ourselves with the various claims you make about this God.

Good luck with it!

[torridon]

My own impression is that it is some non-believers who cling on to the delusion that they do not have the power to control, manipulate or have freedom to make conscious choices.  Because if they concede to these attributes, they would have to admit that there is something other than the deterministic rules of science which is responsible for their thoughts, words or deeds.

I think you have that expressed that wrongly.  More accurately, my position at least, is that we all live with a feeling of free will and conscious agency but science, and ultimately logic, indicate that this must be something of an illusion, the concept doesn't really make any sense ultimately.  It's not a matter of clinging to anything, it is a matter of being honest about the facts and clear in your understanding.

So what does it take for these people to open up their minds to the reality of their existence and begin their search for God?

If it involves reality evasion and head games then it wouldn't be for me, I'm too old for that kind of stuff now.  Straightforward honest evidence based reasoning would fit the bill however.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

That's called the reification fallacy. You just asserted your conclusion ("God is the ultimate source of all existence")

Is it not a valid conclusion that if anything exists, there must be an ultimate source of existence?  Or are you asserting that it may be "turtles all the way down"?

[Sebastian Toe]

  Or are you asserting that it may be "turtles all the way down"?

Well why not, if you assert 'God'?

[ekim]

Simply put, God is the ultimate source of all existence, but of course our human intellect alone could never imagine or deduce what the nature of this source is.  The only way we could know anything about this source is if it made itself known to its creation.  The essential step in making itself known would be to endow this creation with some form of conscious perception, and give it the ability yearn for knowledge of its creator. 

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Luke 11:9–10

That doesn't say very much though.  Let us assume that there is a divine source.  We all are able to consciously perceive but you claim that that source has made itself known to you.  What is it that distinguishes that claim from a self created illusion?  Your quote from Luke doesn't say where to seek and where the door is.  You appear to claim that you have found it and so it should be possible for you to point the way.

[Gordon]

Is it not a valid conclusion that if anything exists, there must be an ultimate source of existence?

If so, and since you say your God exists, what is the 'ultimate source' of your choice of 'God'?

[Sebastian Toe]

That doesn't say very much though.  Let us assume that there is a divine source.  We all are able to consciously perceive but you claim that that source has made itself known to you.  What is it that distinguishes that claim from a self created illusion?  Your quote from Luke doesn't say where to seek and where the door is.  You appear to claim that you have found it and so it should be possible for you to point the way.

Cue;
You are not looking properly or in the wrong place.
Satan is clouding your vision.
Try harder.
Open your heart. No, really open your heart. No really, really open your heart.
Etc......

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Is it not a valid conclusion that if anything exists, there must be an ultimate source of existence?  Or are you asserting that it may be "turtles all the way down"?

Not necessarily, no.

And besides, your assertion was that "God" (by which you appear to mean the god with which you happen to be culturally most familiar) was that cause. That's a positive conclusion about what this supposed "ultimate source" must be - something for which you provide no supporting argument or evidence of any kind.   

[Sebastian Toe]

AB,

Not necessarily, no.

And besides, your assertion was that "God" (by which you appear to mean the god with which you happen to be culturally most familiar) was that cause. That's a positive conclusion about what this supposed "ultimate source" must be - something for which you provide no supporting argument or evidence of any kind.

No he has. You have a 'soul' and that is God given. Therefore God.
See, that was easy!

[wigginhall]

Simply put, God is the ultimate source of all existence, but of course our human intellect alone could never imagine or deduce what the nature of this source is.  The only way we could know anything about this source is if it made itself known to its creation.  The essential step in making itself known would be to endow this creation with some form of conscious perception, and give it the ability yearn for knowledge of its creator. 

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Luke 11:9–10

I have to admit, this is quite clever.   Just as you're about to ask, so what is this divine source like, AB neatly cuts you off at the pass - we're not clever enough to actually say what this source is.  Never mind, we have some evidence - conscious perception.   Eh?  How is that evidence?   Don't ask awkward questions, I just said it is. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Seb,

No he has. You have a 'soul' and that is God given. Therefore God.

See, that was easy!

Darn you an' yer fancy book learnin'!

That's me plum tuckered then.

Oh no, hang on a cotton-pickin' mo though...

...this "soul" of his...

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Not necessarily, no.

And besides, your assertion was that "God" (by which you appear to mean the god with which you happen to be culturally most familiar) was that cause. That's a positive conclusion about what this supposed "ultimate source" must be - something for which you provide no supporting argument or evidence of any kind.

I was asked for a definition of what God is, and "the ultimate source of all that exists" seems to be apt.  Surely you do not need evidence for something as fundamental as this.  If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence.

[Sebastian Toe]

I was asked for a definition of what God is, and "the ultimate source of all that exists" seems to be apt.  Surely you do not need evidence for something as fundamental as this.  If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence.

However you are wrong as it was Brahma who created the universe as he is the ultimate source of all that exists. Nice try though.

[ippy]

I was asked for a definition of what God is, and "the ultimate source of all that exists" seems to be apt.  Surely you do not need evidence for something as fundamental as this.  If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence.

"If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence".

We haven't got an answer, so what's wrong with, we don't know; so why invent soppy ideas or make up dodgy magical/mystical stories that haven't got the slightest connection to reality? Any more than Kevin the magical Unicorn did it all, has any connection with  reality.

I've had a partnership with Kevin the Unicorn I just know he exists, once you have experienced this connection you just know.

However, I'm not so sure about tap dancing Unicorns.

ippy

 

 

[torridon]

I was asked for a definition of what God is, and "the ultimate source of all that exists" seems to be apt.  Surely you do not need evidence for something as fundamental as this.  If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence.

But positing a being, human-like but with super powers, as source of existence does not really solve the problem, it is merely a sticking plaster that looks superficially like a solution.  If buffaloes started thinking, they would probably imagine everything was created by a great buffalo, and this is all you are doing.  If there is some ultimate source of existence, it must be something more profound than this,  it must be something that itself does not exist, in the normal sense, such as pure logic. Otherwise you are left with the problem of how the source started to exist.

[BashfulAnthony]

"If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence".

We haven't got an answer, so what's wrong with, we don't know; so why invent soppy ideas or make up dodgy magical/mystical stories that haven't got the slightest connection to reality? Any more than Kevin the magical Unicorn did it all, has any connection with  reality.

I've had a partnership with Kevin the Unicorn I just know he exists, once you have experienced this connection you just know.

However, I'm not so sure about tap dancing Unicorns.

ippy

ippy, why do you denigrate peoples' beliefs with your constant use of such allusions as your obsession with unicorns.  Why not have the decency to let people believe as they wish?

[ekim]

I was asked for a definition of what God is, and "the ultimate source of all that exists" seems to be apt.  Surely you do not need evidence for something as fundamental as this.  If anything exists, there must be an ultimate source for this existence.

Assuming that were true, how do you, personally, consciously know that source?  How can others be sure that you are not a Hell's Angel proselytising a Satanic illusion?  How can others validate your claim?

[Alan Burns]

But positing a being, human-like but with super powers, as source of existence does not really solve the problem, it is merely a sticking plaster that looks superficially like a solution.  If buffaloes started thinking, they would probably imagine everything was created by a great buffalo, and this is all you are doing.  If there is some ultimate source of existence, it must be something more profound than this,  it must be something that itself does not exist, in the normal sense, such as pure logic. Otherwise you are left with the problem of how the source started to exist.

As I said earlier, the human mind just can't come to terms with an ultimate source of existence because in our universe, everything we perceive has a beginning and an end.  But I believe that this ultimate source of existence, which I will call God, has made itself known to the human race.  The profound opening to John's Gospel relates to this mystery:  "In the beginning was the word".  A word does not exist as a physical thing.  A word can be represented in physical form, in sound waves or in printed patterns, but essentially it is a meaning which can only be perceived by conscious awareness.  God is not a physical thing, and neither is our conscious awareness, and in God's revelation we find the meaning of life itself.

[trippymonkey]

It seems to be getting more difficult here to sort out who's taking the proverbial & WHO'S serious ?!!?!!?

Nick

[ippy]

ippy, why do you denigrate peoples' beliefs with your constant use of such allusions as your obsession with unicorns.  Why not have the decency to let people believe as they wish?

Believe what you like B A but don't expect to get away scot free without thee beliefs being subject to ridicule and criticism.

I genuinely find the fact people really believe in these god or godly ideas in the now 21st century with all of the information we now have at our fingertips puzzling and inexcusable.

It wouldn't be so bad if these believers were to keep it  to themselves in their own private time, but no they have to pollute the minds of the young and attempt to make others that don't subscribe to these beliefs conform to their primitive regressive P O V.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

However, I'm not so sure about tap dancing Unicorns.

ippy

Just send him along to me at 10:0 a.m. thursday morning and we will soon teach him the basics!

[ippy]

Just send him along to me at 10:0 a.m. thursday morning and we will soon teach him the basics!

Susan, I was referring to Blue's tap dancing unicorns and I was trying to be polite about them as I'm sure this must be quite  a sensitive area where he's concerned.

As you probably already know, I haven't done any tap dancing since I had my accident.

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

As you probably already know, I haven't done any tap dancing since I had my accident.

ippy

What happened? Did you slip and fall into the sink?

[ippy]

What happened? Did you slip and fall into the sink?

Sorry no I didn't fall into the sink, I couldn't tap dance before I had the accident either, boom boom.


ippy

[Alan Burns]

Assuming that were true, how do you, personally, consciously know that source? 

The source of creation has made itself known to me.

There are many man made religions which have tried to seek out the source using human intellect, and thus get many different versions of the source.

The Christian religion has ample evidence for the source of creation making itself known to the human race.

Many people I know seem to have a longing for fulfilment in their lives which is elusive.  We all long for fulfillment, it is part of what makes us human.  Some may seek this fulfilment with earthly riches and pleasures, but there is ample evidence that these earthly riches and pleasures do not bring happiness.

In God alone is my soul at rest.
Psalm 62