Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3891013 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13475 on: September 20, 2016, 10:04:48 AM »
Sword,

Quote
Let us suppose that the universe is, in fact, a supernaturalistic one. In fact, it contains a God that is directly concerned with human affairs, and is helpful and loving to the point that it will answer clearly, fully, and honestly, any question submitted to it in earnest prayer. In this universe, methodological naturalism would not be able to compete in the slightest degree with methodological supernaturalism. The best way to acquire new data and formulate correct explanations for them would be to use the method of praying earnestly to God, and accepting the explanations he offers as the real picture of the universe.
Firstly, thank you enki for at least taking on the challenge I’ve being given out. I respect that, so I think it would be wrong of me to criticize in any way the outline of your journey. Therefore I’ll cover your points by using the quote at the end of your post, which I’ll break down:

Quote
Let us suppose that the universe is, in fact, a supernaturalistic one
My belief is that the cause was supernatural. Order from disorder can happen naturally (e.g. snowflake, sand dunes), but intelligence from non-intelligence? Laws from non-laws? Life from non-life?

Quote
In fact, it contains a God that is directly concerned with human affairs
Also my belief, based on what is written in the Bible. From the creation of the first human beings in Genesis right through to Revelation, one sees time and time again the Lord God interacting with human beings.

Quote
...and loving to the point that it will answer clearly, fully, and honestly, any question submitted to it in earnest prayer.
I believe that the way God demonstrated His love for us was by sending His Son Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross for our sins.

The answering of questions bit is more tricky. I believe that some answers are to be found in the Bible and some answers I believe have been answered as a result of prayer. Not all of my questions though. Therefore, if I’m not getting an answer, does it mean that God doesn’t exist, or is there some other explanation. My thought is this: Does the lack of an answer affect the existence (or otherwise) of God as an objective truth? No.

Quote
In this universe, methodological naturalism would not be able to compete in the slightest degree with methodological supernaturalism
It can’t in my opinion! We know from observation that things that have a beginning require a cause. Methodological naturalism requires intelligent order to come from disorder and things to create themselves from nothing. For me, a top-down model for explaining life on earth is consistent with observation. The first animals / plants / human beings are created with all the necessary functionality to live and propagate, including reproductive ability  and genetic variation and / or loss results in the variety of life, DNA being the blueprint for all living organisms. Under this model there is no
Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
Which came first? The seed or the plant?
I was born from my mother, who was born from her mother, who was born from her mother, ... (how is this regression terminated?)

In contrast, I would suggest that all of these examples should falsify a naturalistic model. I would also suggest sexual reproduction should, because under the evolutionary model where things happen over a long period of time, at what point did life that didn’t reproduce sexually start reproducing sexually? How did male and female undergo the relevant anatomical changes at what would have to be the same rate in order to then at some point be able to mate?

Quote
The best way to acquire new data and formulate correct explanations for them would be to use the method of praying earnestly to God, and accepting the explanations he offers as the real picture of the universe.
Which, in a way illustrates why I have stayed with Christianity. Bertrand’s Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) assume that there is no evidence (or even reasons to believe) for the Christian faith, i.e. blind faith is used. However, you would be surprised at what actions we human beings do in other areas, which suddenly become a problem for some when it comes to belief in God.

Firstly, there is written information (the Bible). Secondly, there is creation. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, human beings design and make things. What are the qualities of the things we make? Are there similarities elsewhere? If so, then an argument can be made. We have creation and I would also throw in moral laws (again, human beings make laws, why should we assume that we are the only one capable of doing so?). Are there universal moral laws? I would suggest so, and often a good way to illustrate this is in the way we react to things. If there are no moral laws, then where does e.g. that sense of injustice come from? Why is there any basis for having right vs wrong behaviour?

Since I keep on mentioning falsifiability, it’s only right that I apply it to my own Christian faith (although I have already mentioned it elsewhere). If Jesus Christ didn’t rise from the dead, then no Christian faith.  Yes, I have to believe this by faith, but I’ve chosen to. I have no reason not to believe the Gospel accounts. For example: Why should I disbelieve the Gospel accounts from 2000 years ago, yet believe the claim of someone who says that “Life started in the sea 4 billion years ago” (Sir David Attenborough). I can’t even begin to verify that one!!

I would accept that personal experience can be unreliable, but personally I would find it hard to stay a Christian if e.g. I never felt that I had seen an answer to prayer.

Ok, that’s a summary. There’s much more I could add. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have lots of questions regarding my own faith, but that’s all part of the journey. :)

That's a whole compendium of fallacious reasoning you've attempted there! Can I suggest that you Wiki "logical fallacies", eliminate them from your reasoning and then - if there is anything left - post just that for us to consider? It'd save a lot of time.

Ta.   
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God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13476 on: September 20, 2016, 10:29:20 AM »

Ok, that’s a summary. There’s much more I could add. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have lots of questions regarding my own faith, but that’s all part of the journey. :)

The problem here is that your summary is festooned with fallacies: there is begging the question, argument from personal incredulity, special pleading, argument from authority and even a misunderstanding of the NPF.


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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13477 on: September 20, 2016, 10:36:17 AM »
Firstly, thank you enki for at least taking on the challenge I’ve being given out. I respect that, so I think it would be wrong of me to criticize in any way the outline of your journey. Therefore I’ll cover your points by using the quote at the end of your post, which I’ll break down:
My belief is that the cause was supernatural. Order from disorder can happen naturally (e.g. snowflake, sand dunes), but intelligence from non-intelligence? Laws from non-laws? Life from non-life?
Also my belief, based on what is written in the Bible. From the creation of the first human beings in Genesis right through to Revelation, one sees time and time again the Lord God interacting with human beings.
I believe that the way God demonstrated His love for us was by sending His Son Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross for our sins.

The answering of questions bit is more tricky. I believe that some answers are to be found in the Bible and some answers I believe have been answered as a result of prayer. Not all of my questions though. Therefore, if I’m not getting an answer, does it mean that God doesn’t exist, or is there some other explanation. My thought is this: Does the lack of an answer affect the existence (or otherwise) of God as an objective truth? No.
It can’t in my opinion! We know from observation that things that have a beginning require a cause. Methodological naturalism requires intelligent order to come from disorder and things to create themselves from nothing. For me, a top-down model for explaining life on earth is consistent with observation. The first animals / plants / human beings are created with all the necessary functionality to live and propagate, including reproductive ability  and genetic variation and / or loss results in the variety of life, DNA being the blueprint for all living organisms. Under this model there is no
Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
Which came first? The seed or the plant?
I was born from my mother, who was born from her mother, who was born from her mother, ... (how is this regression terminated?)

In contrast, I would suggest that all of these examples should falsify a naturalistic model. I would also suggest sexual reproduction should, because under the evolutionary model where things happen over a long period of time, at what point did life that didn’t reproduce sexually start reproducing sexually? How did male and female undergo the relevant anatomical changes at what would have to be the same rate in order to then at some point be able to mate?
Which, in a way illustrates why I have stayed with Christianity. Bertrand’s Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) assume that there is no evidence (or even reasons to believe) for the Christian faith, i.e. blind faith is used. However, you would be surprised at what actions we human beings do in other areas, which suddenly become a problem for some when it comes to belief in God.

Firstly, there is written information (the Bible). Secondly, there is creation. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, human beings design and make things. What are the qualities of the things we make? Are there similarities elsewhere? If so, then an argument can be made. We have creation and I would also throw in moral laws (again, human beings make laws, why should we assume that we are the only one capable of doing so?). Are there universal moral laws? I would suggest so, and often a good way to illustrate this is in the way we react to things. If there are no moral laws, then where does e.g. that sense of injustice come from? Why is there any basis for having right vs wrong behaviour?

Since I keep on mentioning falsifiability, it’s only right that I apply it to my own Christian faith (although I have already mentioned it elsewhere). If Jesus Christ didn’t rise from the dead, then no Christian faith.  Yes, I have to believe this by faith, but I’ve chosen to. I have no reason not to believe the Gospel accounts. For example: Why should I disbelieve the Gospel accounts from 2000 years ago, yet believe the claim of someone who says that “Life started in the sea 4 billion years ago” (Sir David Attenborough). I can’t even begin to verify that one!!

I would accept that personal experience can be unreliable, but personally I would find it hard to stay a Christian if e.g. I never felt that I had seen an answer to prayer.

Ok, that’s a summary. There’s much more I could add. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have lots of questions regarding my own faith, but that’s all part of the journey. :)

You are entitled to your beliefs but I cannot see it your way at all, as it lacks credibility where I am concerned.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13478 on: September 20, 2016, 10:39:10 AM »
Gordon,

Quote
The problem here is that your summary is festooned with fallacies: there is begging the question, argument from personal incredulity, special pleading, argument from authority and even a misunderstanding of the NPF.

Yeah, but apart from that though...

He also seems to be a bit of a fan of some casual vladdery. So far as I can tell he has a straw man version of atheists' "world view" that he then criticises for not being falsifiable, but he's awful coy about telling us what the thinks this supposed world view to be. My guess is that he's so invested in it that he never will, but let's see if he surprises us nonetheless.

Odd stuff indeed.
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God

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13479 on: September 20, 2016, 02:15:18 PM »
Firstly, thank you enki for at least taking on the challenge I’ve being given out. I respect that, so I think it would be wrong of me to criticize in any way the outline of your journey. Therefore I’ll cover your points by using the quote at the end of your post, which I’ll break down:
My belief is that the cause was supernatural. Order from disorder can happen naturally (e.g. snowflake, sand dunes), but intelligence from non-intelligence? Laws from non-laws? Life from non-life?
Also my belief, based on what is written in the Bible. From the creation of the first human beings in Genesis right through to Revelation, one sees time and time again the Lord God interacting with human beings.
I believe that the way God demonstrated His love for us was by sending His Son Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross for our sins.

The answering of questions bit is more tricky. I believe that some answers are to be found in the Bible and some answers I believe have been answered as a result of prayer. Not all of my questions though. Therefore, if I’m not getting an answer, does it mean that God doesn’t exist, or is there some other explanation. My thought is this: Does the lack of an answer affect the existence (or otherwise) of God as an objective truth? No.
It can’t in my opinion! We know from observation that things that have a beginning require a cause. Methodological naturalism requires intelligent order to come from disorder and things to create themselves from nothing. For me, a top-down model for explaining life on earth is consistent with observation. The first animals / plants / human beings are created with all the necessary functionality to live and propagate, including reproductive ability  and genetic variation and / or loss results in the variety of life, DNA being the blueprint for all living organisms. Under this model there is no
Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
Which came first? The seed or the plant?
I was born from my mother, who was born from her mother, who was born from her mother, ... (how is this regression terminated?)

In contrast, I would suggest that all of these examples should falsify a naturalistic model. I would also suggest sexual reproduction should, because under the evolutionary model where things happen over a long period of time, at what point did life that didn’t reproduce sexually start reproducing sexually? How did male and female undergo the relevant anatomical changes at what would have to be the same rate in order to then at some point be able to mate?
Which, in a way illustrates why I have stayed with Christianity. Bertrand’s Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) assume that there is no evidence (or even reasons to believe) for the Christian faith, i.e. blind faith is used. However, you would be surprised at what actions we human beings do in other areas, which suddenly become a problem for some when it comes to belief in God.

Firstly, there is written information (the Bible). Secondly, there is creation. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, human beings design and make things. What are the qualities of the things we make? Are there similarities elsewhere? If so, then an argument can be made. We have creation and I would also throw in moral laws (again, human beings make laws, why should we assume that we are the only one capable of doing so?). Are there universal moral laws? I would suggest so, and often a good way to illustrate this is in the way we react to things. If there are no moral laws, then where does e.g. that sense of injustice come from? Why is there any basis for having right vs wrong behaviour?

Since I keep on mentioning falsifiability, it’s only right that I apply it to my own Christian faith (although I have already mentioned it elsewhere). If Jesus Christ didn’t rise from the dead, then no Christian faith.  Yes, I have to believe this by faith, but I’ve chosen to. I have no reason not to believe the Gospel accounts. For example: Why should I disbelieve the Gospel accounts from 2000 years ago, yet believe the claim of someone who says that “Life started in the sea 4 billion years ago” (Sir David Attenborough). I can’t even begin to verify that one!!

I would accept that personal experience can be unreliable, but personally I would find it hard to stay a Christian if e.g. I never felt that I had seen an answer to prayer.

Ok, that’s a summary. There’s much more I could add. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have lots of questions regarding my own faith, but that’s all part of the journey. :)


This seems to me to be just a protestation of your own faith. And if you find it convincing then fair enough.

So, just a few comments:

I don't see this as a 'journey' for me, at all.  It's simply my way of looking critically at the statements, assertions and arguments of those who suggest that their god actually exists.

The thought experiment was not created to suggest that this is what actually happens, but to suggest that this would be a means of convincing me that the supernatural does exist. Your suggestion that because this does not happen does not disprove the existence of your God is not is what was being asked for.

As everything needs a cause, then why do you stop at God?

Just because abiogenesis hasn't yet got an adequate explanation, does this mean that to say that God created life is an explanation?  If so, can you explain(in minute detail) how he created the first life on this planet? Please take note, I'm not asking you to tell me what He did, but how He did it. Unless you can do so, then I'll stick with 'not yet knowing' thank you.

Everything I observe in the natural world suggests that rather than it being the result of a top down model, it is the exact opposite. Incidentally, there are still certain organisms which do not reproduce sexually.

I accept that you see the bible as being some sort of evidence for your particualr views. I don't.

If I were to accept your idea that because humans design things, and that the world shows evidence of design, suggesting a designer god also, then I would have to come to these conclusions:

1) The world, which, on this view, shows numerous examples of faulty design, would illustrate the imperfection of its designer.

2) As human beings have descended from much simpler organisms, then so should this designer god.

As I see morality as being relative, your question of where does our sense of injustice come from, would be answered as being associated with evolution. Ditto, for 'right' and 'wrong' behaviour. If you want a fuller answer, you will find my views and arguments for my position in Mess. 133, which was very kindly put on the 'Forum Best Bits' Thread in the General Discussion Section by Nearly Sane.

Unlike you, I don't take the view that the gospel accounts have to be believed in their entirety. I do think that there probably was a person called Jesus, who had a powerful effect on his followers. I don't see any evidence for the miraculous happenings which the gospels enunciate however, and don't see any evidence that his God(either in a unitarian or trinitarian mode) exists. On the other hand, there is a large amount of evidence that suggests that life started in watery habitats, leading me to the conclusion that this is probably, I repeat, probably, correct.

Finally, you can believe that your prayers have been answered by your God as much as you like, but there is a large amount of evidence that this, when it seems to happen, is purely the result of coincidence or correlation rather than causation. And of course this takes no account of the vast number of instances when prayers do not have any positive outcome whatever.

Faith is not an option for me. Your 'journey' as you call it, is up to you, and I wish you well.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13480 on: September 20, 2016, 11:23:18 PM »
Sword,

That's a whole compendium of fallacious reasoning you've attempted there! Can I suggest that you Wiki "logical fallacies", eliminate them from your reasoning and then - if there is anything left - post just that for us to consider? It'd save a lot of time.

Ta.
And do you honestly believe that there are no fallacies in the "logic" that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?
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SqueakyVoice

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13481 on: September 21, 2016, 12:05:22 AM »
And do you honestly believe that there are no fallacies in the "logic" that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?

If there are fallacies then you'd be able to point them out. Instead you just lie and hand wave and lie about waving your hands.

Perhaps if you could produce one of these alleged fallacies that doesn't just reveal your ignorance of whichever topic(/s) is under consideration, that would at least be a start.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13482 on: September 21, 2016, 06:11:38 AM »
Gordon,

Yeah, but apart from that though...

He also seems to be a bit of a fan of some casual vladdery. So far as I can tell he has a straw man version of atheists' "world view" that he then criticises for not being falsifiable, but he's awful coy about telling us what the thinks this supposed world view to be. My guess is that he's so invested in it that he never will, but let's see if he surprises us nonetheless.

Odd stuff indeed.
Then you will be able to deny and denounce philosophical naturalism and all its works here and now.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 06:43:14 AM by Vlad and his ilk. »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13483 on: September 21, 2016, 08:22:10 AM »
Vlad,

This is just perfect. I posted this to Gordon:

Quote
Gordon,

Yeah, but apart from that though...

He also seems to be a bit of a fan of some casual vladdery. So far as I can tell he has a straw man version of atheists' "world view" that he then criticises for not being falsifiable, but he's awful coy about telling us what the thinks this supposed world view to be. My guess is that he's so invested in it that he never will, but let's see if he surprises us nonetheless.

Odd stuff indeed.

To which you replied:

Quote
Then you will be able to deny and denounce philosophical naturalism and all its works here and now.

Your straw man, personally re-defined meaning of "philosophical naturalism" being exactly the type of vladdery I was referring to!

Brilliant. Just brilliant. 
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13484 on: September 21, 2016, 08:28:37 AM »
AB,

Quote
And do you honestly believe that there are no fallacies in the "logic" that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?

Depends what you mean here by "accidental", but if you mean, "without the necessity to conjecture a divine, intelligent, purposive something (that itself needs no explanation) to have come about" then yes, I honestly believe that because "intelligent self aware life forms" are explicable in naturalistic terms.

If however you think there to be a logical flaw in that, then you'll need to tell us what you think it to be so we can consider your argument.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13485 on: September 21, 2016, 11:38:50 AM »
Depends what you mean here by "accidental", but if you mean, "without the necessity to conjecture a divine, intelligent, purposive something (that itself needs no explanation) to have come about" then yes, I honestly believe that because "intelligent self aware life forms" are explicable in naturalistic terms.
So

in the beginning, there was nothing, and nothing caused something and the something went on to self-enhance itself

And I'm supposed to give up the falsifiable Christian faith for this unfalsifiable alternative?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13486 on: September 21, 2016, 11:41:40 AM »
(to Alan Burns)
If there are fallacies then you'd be able to point them out. Instead you just lie and hand wave and lie about waving your hands.

Perhaps if you could produce one of these alleged fallacies that doesn't just reveal your ignorance of whichever topic(/s) is under consideration, that would at least be a start.
Perhaps he didn't because you ignored all the ones I put in my post!
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13487 on: September 21, 2016, 11:58:55 AM »
So

in the beginning, there was nothing,


Who exactly says that?


So

and nothing caused something

Who exactly says that?
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SqueakyVoice

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13488 on: September 21, 2016, 12:00:31 PM »
Perhaps he didn't because you ignored all the ones I put in my post!
Yes, I agree. You did put loads of argumental fallacies in your post. (Assuming you're referring to your post on 20Sept at 9:39)

The issue is that they aren't fallacies in the idea (to quote AB) "that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?". They're just more and more repetitions of your own fallacious reasoning.

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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13489 on: September 21, 2016, 12:01:30 PM »
Yes, I agree. You did put loads of argumental fallacies in your post. (Assuming you're referring to your post on 20Sept at 9:39)

The issue is that they aren't fallacies in the idea (to quote AB) "that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?". They're just more and more repetitions of your own fallacious reasoning.

Agreed.

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13490 on: September 21, 2016, 12:34:47 PM »
So

in the beginning, there was nothing, and nothing caused something and the something went on to self-enhance itself



I assume that's God you're talking about there?

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13491 on: September 21, 2016, 02:04:50 PM »
And do you honestly believe that there are no fallacies in the "logic" that is used to explain the accidental emergence of intelligent self aware life forms from a cloud of exploding gas?

It would be interesting to see your account of how the universe was formed, and how life began.   I mean a detailed account, not some vague phrases or some Biblical cliches.   Clearly, cosmological theories are not fully formed - nobody disputes that, so it would be refreshing to see something detailed and predictive. 
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13492 on: September 21, 2016, 02:34:53 PM »
I've been surprised a few times now at how poor the thinking can be of people who earn their livings as philosophers (WLC of course, Michael Ruse is another) -

Is Ruse so bad? Is he a polemicist for evangelical Christianity, like the egregious WLC? I've just read Ruse's "The Darwinian Revolution - nature red in tooth and claw", and this seemed to be a fairly well-reasoned assemblage of the various angles of the evolutionary argument in the 19th century. Of course, he didn't go into any in-depth ideas there of what his own philosophical views were, so I don't really know quite where he's coming from.
However, he did briefly allude to an idea which later became the substance of a complete book of his* - namely that some critics have put forward the claim that evolution is just a social construct, without any necessary objective truth at all. But he then strongly asserted that he thought such a view was nonsense.

*"Mystery of Mysteries - is evolution a social construction?"
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 02:51:24 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13493 on: September 21, 2016, 02:40:20 PM »
Sword,

Quote
So

in the beginning, there was nothing, and nothing caused something and the something went on to self-enhance itself

I'm wondering whether we shouldn't re-name vladdery as "swordery" or something. Your really are fond of a straw man or six aren't you. Who is it that you think claims this to be the cosmological model?

Quote
And I'm supposed to give up the falsifiable Christian faith for this unfalsifiable alternative?

How would you propose to falsify "God" exactly, and you've had explained to you several times now that logic and rationalism are falsifiable. What's not is your straw man version of these things. 
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13494 on: September 21, 2016, 02:44:53 PM »
Sword,

Quote
Perhaps he didn't because you ignored all the ones I put in my post!

All the fallacies you put in your post? You seem to be quite proud of them!

They weren't ignored - rather as it gets tedious endlessly to explain them to those who use them so egregiously it was suggested that you might look into the matter yourself so as to eliminate the fallacious arguments your attempted, and - if there was anything left - to post just that for others to consider.

Seems reasonable enough to me. 

 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13495 on: September 21, 2016, 02:48:09 PM »
DU,

Quote
Is Ruse so bad? Is he a polemicist for evangelical Christianity, like the egregious WLC? I've just read Ruse's "The Darwinian Revolution - nature red in tooth and claw", and this seemed to be a fairly well-reasoned assemblage of the various angles of the evolutionary argument in the 19th century. Of course, he didn't go into any in-depth ideas there of what his own philosophical views were, so I don't really know quite where he's coming from.
However, he did briefly allude to an idea which later became the substance of a complete book of his* - namely that some critics have put forward the claim that evolution is just a social construct, without any necessary objective truth at all. But he then strongly asserted that he thought such a view was nonsense.

"Mystery of Mysteries - is evolution a social construction?"

You have the advantage here as I haven't read any of his books. I have though read various of his newspaper articles, one long one in particular that I critiqued here at length so appalling was it. I'm guessing that it's been culled along with so much else, but I'll have a look nonetheless. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13496 on: September 21, 2016, 03:15:36 PM »
They weren't ignored - rather as it gets tedious endlessly to explain them to those who use them so egregiously ...
Then exchange your worldview for one that actually has some substance behind it (being falsifiable by your own scientific standards would be a good start), as opposed to just being a collection of arguments.

Quote from: bluehillside
it was suggested that you might look into the matter yourself so as to eliminate the fallacious arguments your attempted, and - if there was anything left - to post just that for others to consider.
There's no point. Your worldview is a tautology, therefore anything that disagrees with it is automatically seen to be wrong. That's why you cannot cite anything that would falsify it! Moreover, it's not my job to do it as I am not subscribing to it. I have stated several times now how the Christian faith can be falsified, but in case you missed it, here it is again:

If Jesus Christ didn't rise from the dead, there is no Christian faith

What is the equivalent for your commitment to a naturalistic philosophy?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13497 on: September 21, 2016, 03:17:32 PM »
Then exchange your worldview for one that actually has some substance behind it (being falsifiable by your own scientific standards would be a good start), as opposed to just being a collection of arguments.
There's no point. Your worldview is a tautology, therefore anything that disagrees with it is automatically seen to be wrong. That's why you cannot cite anything that would falsify it! Moreover, it's not my job to do it as I am not subscribing to it. I have stated several times now how the Christian faith can be falsified, but in case you missed it, here it is again:

If Jesus Christ didn't rise from the dead, there is no Christian faith

What is the equivalent for your commitment to a naturalistic philosophy?

He didn't rise from the dead.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13498 on: September 21, 2016, 03:26:57 PM »
He didn't rise from the dead.
And you know that how?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13499 on: September 21, 2016, 03:32:55 PM »
And you know that how?

People do not die and come back to life, so this is the default starting position.

Why have you moved from the default position?

what evidence has convinced you that the default is wrong in this case?
I see gullible people, everywhere!