Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3887327 times)

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13700 on: October 19, 2016, 04:10:09 PM »
You seem to be blind to the amazing impact the New Testament message has had on the civilisations which adopted Christianity.  The whole of western civilisation has been built upon the values set out in the NT.  The impact of this amazing turn round in human values is still reverberating around the world.  On the evolutionary time scale, Christianity is still in its infancy and we have yet to see the fruits of nations adopting the full message of the NT instead of trying to cherry pick the bits we like.

As Torridon has pointed out, my point was about the content of the Bible, not about the imact of Christianity. Torri is also right when he draws attention to the complexity of the question about impact. I'll start with a few words about the cultural impact of Christianity on me, personally. The artistic legacy is profound. For me, this has been predominantly musical. Along with that well-known atheist, bluehillside, I rate Bach's St Matthew  Passion as one of the highest watermarks of western musical culture (along with his B Minor Mass). The whole gamut of Christian-inspired music (apart from more recent happy-clappy contributions) has always moved me profoundly.
However, this has always been tinged with a kind of divided psychological response, especially when I analyse the words about sin and guilt. I suppose this is quite common even among the great composers who didn't really believe, such as Verdi, who could write a marvellous Requiem, full of such feelings, but not deep-down attributing them any true religious significance (i.e. matters of redemption etc.)

That's a particularly personal view. The history of European Christian culture is enormously complex, and to sift the positive contribution of Christianity from the negative, the work of a lifetime; and even then, the conclusions would very be biased according to one's personal philosophy. There's certainly something to be said for the view (as Khatru said) that Christianity kept scientific thinking in the dark for a very long period, whilst the Muslims were actively promoting it. It's also arguable that the immediate consequences of the Reformation instigated a totally tragic and ludicrous war lasting decades, which did not advance civilisation one iota. And though Protestantism may have given rise eventually to a more individualistic, independent kind of thinking which was beneficial to science, it also gave rise to the possibility of the appearance of a multitude of cranky religious sects, each thinking that they have the ear of the deity, and all convinced that they and only they are in possession of divine truth.
The harmful guilt promoted by Christianity over what some might consider trivial matters is not something Christians should be proud of - particularly when, having caused the disease, they then proclaim that they alone have the cure.
Fortunately, Christian music, art and architecture have managed to convey life-enhancing qualities largely untainted by such matters.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 05:40:49 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13701 on: October 19, 2016, 04:55:19 PM »
Also if you just do what your god says is correct, that is not moral.

You have no moral values if you just do as you are told.

You need to evaluate for yourself to have a morality
I trust God much more than my own (or anyone else's) intellect.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13702 on: October 19, 2016, 05:17:25 PM »

Fortunately, Christian music, art and architecture have managed to convey life-enhancing qualities largely untainted by such matters.
I too get spiritual highs from listening to Christian inspired music.  I particularly enjoy Bach and Vivaldi, and I do appreciate the quality of Verdi's Requiem, but for me it lacks the spiritual joy of the Christian composers.

A recent discovery on YouTube was a complete recording of one of Dylan's Gospel concerts which shows Dylan singing with a passion greater than any other performance I have seen, having attended three of his concerts and seen many films of his other performances.  And it is much better than the clinical recordings on his Christian albums.  Well worth a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0J3Y5s_kfo&t=0s
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13703 on: October 19, 2016, 06:23:49 PM »
I trust God much more than my own (or anyone else's) intellect.

Sorry, Alan.  You may as well be saying.....

"I've disabled my very own conscience and have allowed an external agency the privilege of taking on that role for me."

Have you given any thought whatsoever to just how ripe you are for being exploited?  Can't you see that with an attitude like that you could one day become a danger to your neighbours?

I know, I know - God is good.  End of my analysis, right?
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13704 on: October 19, 2016, 06:58:24 PM »
You are also, as Torridon notes, avoiding the issues surrounding the use of Christianity in political terms over a number of centuries, although thankfully here in the UK those days have gone.
That's why it's such a secular success story!!!! Second great laugh of the day.....Thanks Gordon.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13705 on: October 19, 2016, 07:11:36 PM »
As Torridon has pointed out, my point was about the content of the Bible, not about the imact of Christianity. Torri is also right when he draws attention to the complexity of the question about impact. I'll start with a few words about the cultural impact of Christianity on me, personally. The artistic legacy is profound. For me, this has been predominantly musical. Along with that well-known atheist, bluehillside, I rate Bach's St Matthew  Passion as one of the highest watermarks of western musical culture (along with his B Minor Mass).
That's one hell of an endorsement...I must check this Bach guy out.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13706 on: October 20, 2016, 06:00:32 PM »
Sorry, Alan.  You may as well be saying.....

"I've disabled my very own conscience and have allowed an external agency the privilege of taking on that role for me."

Have you given any thought whatsoever to just how ripe you are for being exploited?  Can't you see that with an attitude like that you could one day become a danger to your neighbours?

I know, I know - God is good.  End of my analysis, right?
My trust in God does not relate to only personal contact, which I agree can be open to all kinds of problems, particularly if you mistake the Devil's temptations for God's will.  My trust relates to God's ability to guide His church , mainly through the divine authority given to our Pope.  I do have insights through personal prayer, but I would never allow these to override the authority and guidance of the church.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13707 on: October 20, 2016, 06:33:17 PM »
particularly if you mistake the Devil's temptations for God's will.
How exactly might the Devil tempt  you for example for that to happen?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

savillerow

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13708 on: October 20, 2016, 06:35:02 PM »
Msg 1378 AB This is massive wordy salad of wackiness. If i lived in a world where this stuff was uttered at every turn in life, IE getting on a bus, going to work, hanging out in the garden with with a group that thought and spoke like this, be greeted on the phone etc Id go nuts. It would be like being in a Stepford Wives film. I know you are a lost case maybe just park yourself up with a little sign around your neck(or a badge) saying"Lost Cause"
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13709 on: October 20, 2016, 11:16:55 PM »
Msg 1378 AB This is massive wordy salad of wackiness. If i lived in a world where this stuff was uttered at every turn in life, IE getting on a bus, going to work, hanging out in the garden with with a group that thought and spoke like this, be greeted on the phone etc Id go nuts. It would be like being in a Stepford Wives film. I know you are a lost case maybe just park yourself up with a little sign around your neck(or a badge) saying"Lost Cause"
I can assure you that there are many like me, and you have a very unrealistic picture of the nature of devout Christians.  My experiences at the Celebrate conferences, which involve a week residing and sharing with 2000 fellow Christians, most of whom are Roman Catholic are truly glimpses of heaven.  We are just ordinary people from all walks of life who share a common faith which brings heavenly joy into our lives.  One seven year old boy who was asked to sum up his experience at Celebrate expressed it very well when he said "This is the real world". 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 10:16:20 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13710 on: October 21, 2016, 06:51:20 AM »
My trust in God does not relate to only personal contact, which I agree can be open to all kinds of problems, particularly if you mistake the Devil's temptations for God's will.  My trust relates to God's ability to guide His church , mainly through the divine authority given to our Pope.  I do have insights through personal prayer, but I would never allow these to override the authority and guidance of the church.

And likewise muslims defer to the authority of the Qu'ran.  Obedience to authority is widespread through society, a hallmark of the human psyche that we so easily relinquish our own conscience and naively defer to authority figures.  You don't need to read far through the history of the Catholic Church to see the extent of its abuse of its authority - from persecution of dissidents to mafia-like popes to abusive priests in our own times.   Don't be a sheep, think for yourself.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13711 on: October 21, 2016, 06:57:15 AM »
And likewise muslims defer to the authority of the Qu'ran.  Obedience to authority is widespread through society, a hallmark of the human psyche that we so easily relinquish our own conscience and naively defer to authority figures.  You don't need to read far through the history of the Catholic Church to see the extent of its abuse of its authority - from persecution of dissidents to mafia-like popes to abusive priests in our own times.   Don't be a sheep, think for yourself.

Oh, if only he would....
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13712 on: October 21, 2016, 10:32:15 AM »
And likewise muslims defer to the authority of the Qu'ran.  Obedience to authority is widespread through society, a hallmark of the human psyche that we so easily relinquish our own conscience and naively defer to authority figures.  You don't need to read far through the history of the Catholic Church to see the extent of its abuse of its authority - from persecution of dissidents to mafia-like popes to abusive priests in our own times.   Don't be a sheep, think for yourself.
As I have said before, I acknowledge that some people within the church have strayed from the remit of serving God and our fellow people, using the church for their own selfish ambitions, but this minority should not be used to dismiss the church and its God given authority.  And Jesus did not delegate authority to Mohamed, He gave it to Peter.  Of course I do relate to being a sheep when it comes to my relationship with God - as scripture says, "We are His people, the sheep of His flock." and "The Lord is my shepherd".   I happily accept the Lord for my shepherd, because in doing so I am complete and He will lead me to salvation.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 10:37:52 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13713 on: October 21, 2016, 10:44:27 AM »
Oh, if only he would....

People are not encouraged to think for themselves if they are Catholics!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13714 on: October 21, 2016, 11:12:08 AM »
People are not encouraged to think for themselves if they are Catholics!

As an ex Catholic, this is an incorrect generalisation

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13715 on: October 21, 2016, 11:22:23 AM »
As I have said before, I acknowledge that some people within the church have strayed from the remit of serving God and our fellow people, using the church for their own selfish ambitions, but this minority should not be used to dismiss the church and its God given authority.  And Jesus did not delegate authority to Mohamed, He gave it to Peter.  Of course I do relate to being a sheep when it comes to my relationship with God - as scripture says, "We are His people, the sheep of His flock." and "The Lord is my shepherd".   I happily accept the Lord for my shepherd, because in doing so I am complete and He will lead me to salvation.

If you just do as god commands then you have no morality.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13716 on: October 21, 2016, 12:05:22 PM »
If you just do as god commands then you have no morality.

Agreed.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13717 on: October 21, 2016, 01:59:12 PM »
If you just do as god commands then you have no morality.
If more people followed the guidance of Christian teaching, could you honestly label them as immoral?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13718 on: October 21, 2016, 02:01:40 PM »

You need to evaluate for yourself to have a morality
Surely to rely entirely on your own thinking leads you open to all kinds of self centred traits.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13719 on: October 21, 2016, 02:07:41 PM »
If more people followed the guidance of Christian teaching, could you honestly label them as immoral?
This presumes there is a single set of Christian values. This is obviously untrue.
 All I can ask is about your values. Do you think that homosexuality is a sin?

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13720 on: October 21, 2016, 02:20:49 PM »
Surely to rely entirely on your own thinking leads you open to all kinds of self centred traits.
It may do, but then, relying entirely upon the unquestioned doctrine of others can lead to all kinds of collective self centred traits, which can pit religion against religion and religious sect against religious sect.

Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13721 on: October 21, 2016, 02:23:24 PM »
My trust in God does not relate to only personal contact, which I agree can be open to all kinds of problems, particularly if you mistake the Devil's temptations for God's will.

How do you distinguish between what is your god's will and what is the devil's temptation?

My trust relates to God's ability to guide His church , mainly through the divine authority given to our Pope.  I do have insights through personal prayer, but I would never allow these to override the authority and guidance of the church.

The Pope speaks for your god?

So when the Vatican put Galileo on trial your god was instructing them to defend a lie?

How about this beauty?

"Unbaptised babies go straight to Hell and suffer there for all eternity."

Pope Gregory 1

Here we have your deity's spokesman revealing the grisly fate your god has in store for millions of babies.

Good one, eh?  Here's another one from Gregory:

"Ignorance is the mother of piety" 

When Pope Pope Pius IX condemned any notion that the Pontiff ought to "come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilisation" he was just passing on your god's message?

Then there was Leo XIII who conveyed your god's objections to the noble idea that all men are created equal.

Notwithstanding this, there are various papal instructions which expressly order persecution of the Jews.  That'll be your god again, right?


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Dorothy Parker

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13722 on: October 21, 2016, 03:54:30 PM »
My trust in God does not relate to only personal contact, which I agree can be open to all kinds of problems, particularly if you mistake the Devil's temptations for God's will.  My trust relates to God's ability to guide His church , mainly through the divine authority given to our Pope.  I do have insights through personal prayer, but I would never allow these to override the authority and guidance of the church.

It's a good job the numbers of people like yourself are rapidly diminishing breed, when you're as set on rails as you are without looking to the right or left; I can see how difficult it would be for you Alan.

ippy


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13723 on: October 21, 2016, 04:01:41 PM »
How do you distinguish between what is your god's will and what is the devil's temptation?
It can be difficult, but in addition to my own judgement I can use the bible and the guidance of the church.  Also I can ask myself: "Am I doing this for my own personal satisfaction or for the good of all?"
Quote
The Pope speaks for your god?

So when the Vatican put Galileo on trial your god was instructing them to defend a lie?

How about this beauty?

"Unbaptised babies go straight to Hell and suffer there for all eternity."

Pope Gregory 1

Here we have your deity's spokesman revealing the grisly fate your god has in store for millions of babies.

Good one, eh?  Here's another one from Gregory:

"Ignorance is the mother of piety" 

When Pope Pope Pius IX condemned any notion that the Pontiff ought to "come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilisation" he was just passing on your god's message?

Then there was Leo XIII who conveyed your god's objections to the noble idea that all men are created equal.

Notwithstanding this, there are various papal instructions which expressly order persecution of the Jews.  That'll be your god again, right?
Mistakes have been made, but I put my trust in God being able to guide us back on the right track.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13724 on: October 21, 2016, 04:02:34 PM »
As an ex Catholic, this is an incorrect generalisation

I'm an ex-Catholic too, or a lapsed Catholic at any rate because I retain some affection for the Church.  It certainly is an incorrect generalisation for those who embraced the ethos of Vatican ll;  I did and found the attitude and actions of others who felt similarly quite energising.  Not everyone was so enthusiastic though and in recent years there has been a tendency to return to more traditional ways.  I understand that Pope Francis is quite forward thinking and realistic but confess I've not taken that much interest in him, only noted comments (pro- and anti-), about  him.

At my Catholic schools we were encouraged to explore and challenge everything except the Faith;  we could question when we didn't understand but not disagree with the answers.  Girls who did were in deep trouble and I do mean "deep", it was stifling.  What surprised me was that, after I left and Vat ll finished, those nuns who had taught us took to the more open and modern church like ducks to water!  They were far nicer.  I used to think, "Why were you ever so flipping uncompromising?".

I've encountered many people who find life a lot easier because they believe the Church has the final answers and understand how seductive the Church is in many respects; there is a certain security in tradition if one is able to accept it all.  They don't have to worry too much about stuff that challenges many of us, except to feel sad that others don't share their certainty, often leading them to try and put us 'straight' according to their lights.  Such people will doubtless disagree with what I've just said.

Individual personality and temperament has a lot to do with it.

Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us