Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3881630 times)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14025 on: January 11, 2017, 11:32:14 AM »
You seem to be under the impression that I am using dubious tactics to pull the wool over people's eyes in order to promote something which is not true.

But you could not be more wrong.

I am simply trying to illustrate what to me is the blindingly obvious truth that we have conscious awareness and free will which will never be explained by the deterministic chemical activity in our physical brains.

Because it is 'blindingly obvious' to you does not make it true.

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And this is not the prop on which my Christian faith depends, because I am in a deep relationship with God which no amount of scientific theory can ever take away.  What I am trying to do is to remove one of the props which many of my atheist friends use to deny God's existence, which is the assumption that science can or will explain everything without the need for God.

I think you might be misunderstanding what your atheist friends are saying. Also, just by stating that something, in your view, cannot happen you are in no way removing a 'prop'.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 01:19:11 PM by Maeght »

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14026 on: January 11, 2017, 12:51:51 PM »
You seem to be under the impression that I am using dubious tactics to pull the wool over people's eyes in order to promote something which is not true.

But you could not be more wrong.

I am simply trying to illustrate what to me is the blindingly obvious truth that we have conscious awareness and free will which will never be explained by the deterministic chemical activity in our physical brains.  And this is not the prop on which my Christian faith depends, because I am in a deep relationship with God which no amount of scientific theory can ever take away.  What I am trying to do is to remove one of the props which many of my atheist friends use to deny God's existence, which is the assumption that science can or will explain everything without the need for God.
It may be "blindingly obvious" to you but nevertheless remains a typically unsupported and unsubstantiated article of faith that we have free will.

I challenge you to find someone - anyone - who holds that science already can or will in the future explain absolutely everything. Since nobody has done so, this is - unsurprisingly - a strawman on your part.

And, incidentally, has zero to do with disbelief in gods, which at least in my case is founded upon the lack of a coherent definition of the same, the absence of evidence thereof, and the utterly brain-bending awfulness and fallaciousness of the arguments advanced by believers such as yourself. Let's face it Alan, you come on here most days, spout the same gibberish every time, get spanked six ways from Sunday, intellectually speaking, by people who know what they're talking about, you consistently ignore criticism, critique, challenge and question in favour of your pre-prepared script of the same old fallacy-riddled pious hopes and bald assertions ... it's a dismal spectacle.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14027 on: January 11, 2017, 02:37:51 PM »
A B ,
Have you any idea how the term 'I'm in a deep relationship with god which no amount of scientific theory can ever take away' sounds to an atheist.?

This ,to me, amounts to a homoerotic love affair that you display with pride, except one of the participants is imaginary. So my minds eye  conjures up some very disturbing imagery which I would rather not have . I had already read your post before I could stop myself. Please give warnings in future .

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14028 on: January 11, 2017, 03:26:52 PM »
And, incidentally, has zero to do with disbelief in gods, which at least in my case is founded upon the lack of a coherent definition of the same, the absence of evidence thereof, and the utterly brain-bending awfulness and fallaciousness of the arguments advanced by believers such as yourself. Let's face it Alan, you come on here most days, spout the same gibberish every time, get spanked six ways from Sunday, intellectually speaking, by people who know what they're talking about, you consistently ignore criticism, critique, challenge and question in favour of your pre-prepared script of the same old fallacy-riddled pious hopes and bald assertions ... it's a dismal spectacle.

Well, that's told him I think  ;)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14029 on: January 11, 2017, 03:44:17 PM »
A B ,
Have you any idea how the term 'I'm in a deep relationship with god which no amount of scientific theory can ever take away' sounds to an atheist.?

This ,to me, amounts to a homoerotic love affair that you display with pride, except one of the participants is imaginary. So my minds eye  conjures up some very disturbing imagery which I would rather not have . I had already read your post before I could stop myself. Please give warnings in future .
I am sorry that my expressing the reality of my relationship with God gives you so much grief.  I just hope and pray that one day you too will partake in such a relationship and experience the joy and peace it brings.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14030 on: January 11, 2017, 03:45:13 PM »
Well, that's told him I think  ;)
No - he'll be back soon enough with still more of the same, utterly oblivious. The flow with AB goes only one way - everything out, nothing in.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14031 on: January 11, 2017, 03:50:14 PM »
No - he'll be back soon enough with still more of the same, utterly oblivious. The flow with AB goes only one way - everything out, nothing in.
someone must have stuffed him full of it at some time in the past though, ooh er.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14032 on: January 11, 2017, 03:56:27 PM »
I am simply trying to illustrate what to me is the blindingly obvious truth that we have conscious awareness and free will which will never be explained by the deterministic chemical activity in our physical brains.  And this is not the prop on which my Christian faith depends, because I am in a deep relationship with God which no amount of scientific theory can ever take away.  What I am trying to do is to remove one of the props which many of my atheist friends use to deny God's existence, which is the assumption that science can or will explain everything without the need for God.

You're only digging your hole deeper Alan by demonstrating your capacity for ignoring reasoned argument. For several years now people have been pointing out the fallacies in what you claim is obvious; we have pointed out that all creatures have conscious awareness not just humans, and free will, is well, not really free if you scratch the surface. And yet you seem oblivious to both reason and evidence.  It seems like you live in your own little echo chamber, never actually engaging with the wider world or learning from research.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14033 on: January 11, 2017, 03:56:38 PM »

I challenge you to find someone - anyone - who holds that science already can or will in the future explain absolutely everything.

They may not claim that science will explain everything, but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.  I recall a person being interviewed on Jeremy Vine's "What makes us human" spot saying, "Of course I do not believe in God, I am a scientist"
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14034 on: January 11, 2017, 03:59:38 PM »
They may not claim that science will explain everything, but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.  I recall a person being interviewed on Jeremy Vine's "What makes us human" spot saying, "Of course I do not believe in God, I am a scientist"

Straw man.  We are not Richard Dawkins and we are not his followers.  Engage with what people write not something tangential that happens to make an easier target.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14035 on: January 11, 2017, 04:01:30 PM »
They may not claim that science will explain everything, but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.  I recall a person being interviewed on Jeremy Vine's "What makes us human" spot saying, "Of course I do not believe in God, I am a scientist"

So much when you said


'What I am trying to do is to remove one of the props which many of my atheist friends use to deny God's existence, which is the assumption that science can or will explain everything without the need for God.'

You were lying?







Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14036 on: January 11, 2017, 04:03:56 PM »
I am sorry that my expressing the reality of my relationship with God gives you so much grief.  I just hope and pray that one day you too will partake in such a relationship and experience the joy and peace it brings.
in which you dishonestly elide your belief into an assertion of reality by begging the question

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14037 on: January 11, 2017, 04:04:01 PM »
You're only digging your hole deeper Alan by demonstrating your capacity for ignoring reasoned argument. For several years now people have been pointing out the fallacies in what you claim is obvious; we have pointed out that all creatures have conscious awareness not just humans, and free will, is well, not really free if you scratch the surface. And yet you seem oblivious to both reason and evidence.  It seems like you live in your own little echo chamber, never actually engaging with the wider world or learning from research.
But if you truly believe I have no free will you must also believe that all my posts are just pre determined events over which I have no control.   Do you truly believe that this is the case, and that you are just arguing against the inevitable consequences of my physical brain activity?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14038 on: January 11, 2017, 04:07:15 PM »
They may not claim that science will explain everything, but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.

I think you'll find, Alan, that there are other factors involved: such as the tendency some theists have in routinely using fallacies (as we often see here), which does indeed indicate poor thinking!



torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14039 on: January 11, 2017, 04:13:06 PM »
But if you truly believe I have no free will you must also believe that all my posts are just pre determined events over which I have no control.   Do you truly believe that this is the case, and that you are just arguing against the inevitable consequences of my physical brain activity?

I for one don't believe that you or I can bend or evade the laws of nature. We are products of nature, we bleed when cut, the choices we make must fall ultimately in line with the overarching paradigm of cause and effect. A choice that was truly free of this would be a meaningless choice.  It might be true to say that our choices seem free, but sooner or later you may want to go deeper than merely how things seem on the surface.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 04:17:22 PM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14040 on: January 11, 2017, 04:17:25 PM »
I for one don't believe that you or I can bend or evade the laws of nature. We are products of nature, we bleed when cut, the choices we make must fall ultimately in line with the overarching paradigm of cause and effect. A choice that was truly free of this would be a meaningless choice.
I would not say that the choice to accept Jesus as your Saviour and bring your soul to eternal salvation was meaningless!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14041 on: January 11, 2017, 04:20:30 PM »
I would not say that the choice to accept Jesus as your Saviour and bring your soul to eternal salvation was meaningless!

Classic evasion/diversion.  So much easier than engaging isn't it ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14042 on: January 11, 2017, 04:28:38 PM »

   I for one don't believe that you or I can bend or evade the laws of nature. We are products of nature, we bleed when cut, the choices we make must fall ultimately in line with the overarching paradigm of cause and effect. A choice that was truly free of this would be a meaningless choice.
I would not say that the choice to accept Jesus as your Saviour and bring your soul to eternal salvation was meaningless!
Quote

Classic evasion/diversion.  So much easier than engaging isn't it ?
It all boils down to what it is that makes the choice.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14043 on: January 11, 2017, 04:37:16 PM »
They may not claim that science will explain everything

In which case, whence this?
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What I am trying to do is to remove one of the props which many of my atheist friends use to deny God's existence, which is the assumption that science can or will explain everything without the need for God.
Once more, with feeling:

A: "They may not claim that science will explain everything"

B: " ... the assumption that science can or will explain everything"

You seem confused ... or just caught out in making yet another claim you can't substantiate and backtracking hastily.

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but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.
 
The idea of God is easily dismissed for ten thousand and one reasons. Here's just one of them: the concept of a God doesn't do the job it's intended to do, which is to explain something. It explains nothing because it in itself is unexplained. It merely kicks back the chain of explanation a further link - i.e. to God - where it's arbitrarily terminated with a lot of coughing and foot-shuffling on the part of the theist who simply waves away the explanation for the explanation with an airy "Oh well, God doesn't need an explanation ... because ... because ... because reasons. Oh, is that the time? I really ought to be getting along."

That is shallow thinking, so the description doesn't strike me as undeserved in this instance.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 04:41:55 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14044 on: January 11, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
AB,

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They may not claim that science will explain everything, but Richard Dawkins and his followers seem to think that it explains enough for them to dismiss the idea of God…

No – all that’s necessary to “dismiss the idea of God” is logic. Whether science has discovered a little or a lot is entirely irrelevant to that, and your habit of dropping in religious beliefs as would be explanations “in the absence of a scientific explanation” is just bad thinking.

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…and to accuse those who have faith to be shallow thinkers.

People aren’t necessarily shallow thinkers because they believe in their various gods. What can suggest that they’re shallow thinkers though is the deployment of logically false arguments for their gods – your good self being a prime proponent of the practice.

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I recall a person being interviewed on Jeremy Vine's "What makes us human" spot saying, "Of course I do not believe in God, I am a scientist"

In the absence of a citation, we’ll have to take your word for that. If s/he did say it though that would be wrong – absent anything with which it can engage science treats claims about gods as “not even wrong”, but it’s quite possible to do science and to think there to be god(s) too even though the incidence of atheism among scientists is generally higher than that among the general population. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 05:42:19 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14045 on: January 11, 2017, 04:59:30 PM »
AB,

Quote
I would not say that the choice to accept Jesus as your Saviour and bring your soul to eternal salvation was meaningless!

Yes it is because the terms on which it relies - "saviour", soul", "salvation" etc - are themselves meaningless. Only if you or anyone else can finally manage to define them in coherent terms and demonstrate their existence at all can the proposition they support have meaning.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14046 on: January 11, 2017, 05:02:59 PM »
AB,

Quote
I am sorry that my expressing the reality of my relationship with God gives you so much grief.

That's not "the" reality at all - it's just your reality. If you expect anyone else to think it to be the reality, then you'll need to make an argument for it that isn't logically broken. That you haven't been able to do so so far doesn't help you, but nor does it mean that you necessarily won't be able to manage it eventually.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14047 on: January 11, 2017, 05:36:23 PM »
Bluey's ablaze again!  ;D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Anchorman

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14048 on: January 11, 2017, 06:27:29 PM »
I am sorry that my expressing the reality of my relationship with God gives you so much grief.  I just hope and pray that one day you too will partake in such a relationship and experience the joy and peace it brings.





-
Amen!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14049 on: January 11, 2017, 07:11:15 PM »
But if you truly believe I have no free will you must also believe that all my posts are just pre determined events over which I have no control.   Do you truly believe that this is the case, and that you are just arguing against the inevitable consequences of my physical brain activity?

I have to repeat a line from Krishnamurti, the spiritual teacher, who said that 'only the unintelligent mind has free will', and this was also said by Saul Bellow, 'clarity eats into freedom'.   It's rather different from your stuff!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!