Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3880763 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14050 on: January 11, 2017, 07:13:12 PM »

The idea of God is easily dismissed for ten thousand and one reasons. Here's just one of them: the concept of a God doesn't do the job it's intended to do, which is to explain something. It explains nothing because it in itself is unexplained. It merely kicks back the chain of explanation a further link - i.e. to God - where it's arbitrarily terminated with a lot of coughing and foot-shuffling on the part of the theist who simply waves away the explanation for the explanation with an airy "Oh well, God doesn't need an explanation ... because ... because ... because reasons. Oh, is that the time? I really ought to be getting along."

But God is not merely an explanation!  Would you ever describe someone you know as "an explanation"?  When you come to know God, (as I sincerely hope you will), you will discover a whole new dimension to life and its purpose.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14051 on: January 11, 2017, 07:14:22 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
I have to repeat a line from Krishnamurti, the spiritual teacher, who said that 'only the unintelligent mind has free will', and this was also said by Saul Bellow, 'clarity eats into freedom'.   It's rather different from your stuff!

Blimey - he finds the time to read the evening news on Channel 4 and to be a spiritual teacher?

Talented chap.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 07:20:33 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14052 on: January 11, 2017, 07:19:09 PM »
AB,

Quote
But God is not merely an explanation!  Would you ever describe someone you know as "an explanation"?

Just out of interest, what makes you think that you do "know God" rather than that you've just made a mistake about that?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14053 on: January 11, 2017, 08:27:29 PM »
But God is not merely an explanation!

Correction: 'God' is not even an explanation. (Reasons why here: http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10333.msg656370#msg656370, i.e. #14045 on this very thread which true to form you have ignored yet again).

If you think 'God' is not merely explanation, then in your view God is an explanation but also something else as well as an explanation. Such as?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:33:41 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

savillerow

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14054 on: January 11, 2017, 10:02:09 PM »
Msg 14052 AB "You will discover a whole new dimension to life and its purpose" AAARRRRGGGHHH This sort of tripe makes me want to throw a blancmange at the wall.
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14055 on: January 11, 2017, 10:42:55 PM »
Msg 14052 AB "You will discover a whole new dimension to life and its purpose" AAARRRRGGGHHH This sort of tripe makes me want to throw a blancmange at the wall.
I actually crushed a grape earlier!

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14056 on: January 12, 2017, 06:57:33 AM »
But God is not merely an explanation!  Would you ever describe someone you know as "an explanation"?  When you come to know God, (as I sincerely hope you will), you will discover a whole new dimension to life and its purpose.

You ought to take that up with God then.  That he reveals himself to certain select individuals but leaves others out in the cold is not consistent with a just god who bestows his gifts fairly to all. Just one more of so many anomalies in your hugely confused thinking. 

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14057 on: January 12, 2017, 11:45:44 AM »
Msg 14052 AB "You will discover a whole new dimension to life and its purpose" AAARRRRGGGHHH This sort of tripe makes me want to throw a blancmange at the wall.
That sort of blancmange makes me want to throw tripe at the wall.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14058 on: January 12, 2017, 12:00:08 PM »
I am sorry that my expressing the reality of my relationship with God gives you so much grief.  I just hope and pray that one day you too will partake in such a relationship and experience the joy and peace it brings.

I have peace and bliss in my life, Alan. It came when I stopped trying to pretend I 'knew God', stopped trying to ignore the parts of the Bible that didn't fit with a God of love, stopped trying to excuse the suffering created apparently by the God of mercy, and finally grew up.

I found lying to myself as exhausting. Much more peaceful just to let it go.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14059 on: January 12, 2017, 12:14:53 PM »
It was a relief to me when I lost my faith. Even though I tried to be devout for a while as a young teenager, it never sat comfortably with me.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14060 on: January 12, 2017, 12:46:17 PM »
It was a relief to me when I lost my faith. Even though I tried to be devout for a while as a young teenager, it never sat comfortably with me.
fortunately for me I never had any faith to loose , even as a 9 year old child I could not accept what my teachers were telling me as true and from then on my mind has been free to enjoy life as it appears .

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14061 on: January 12, 2017, 06:19:18 PM »
AB,

Just out of interest, what makes you think that you do "know God" rather than that you've just made a mistake about that?
I could write a book on this subject.  There are so many things I could say about my relationship with God.

Up until my mid twenties, I thought I knew all about God.  I went to church, attended the sacraments, said my prayers.  I may have known about God, but God brought me into a situation in which I came to know Him, not just know about Him.

My experience was triggered by a priest inviting me to "Life in the Spirit" seminars which he said would change your life.  But I did not want my life to be changed - I was quite happy with a good circle of friends, a good job, my own house and a brand new silver TR7 with a soft top and what I felt to be strong faith.  But I felt curious and was drawn to these seminars (despite misgivings about leaving my TR7 in a rough council estate during dark November evenings).  It really was a life changing experience.  I invited the Holy Spirit into my life and discovered a God who loved me.  Reading scriptures became a new experience as deeper and deeper meanings were revealed.  Music became a powerful prayer, and when I volunteered to play guitar I was teamed up with my future wife!  Since then I have had a wonderful prayer partner in my lovely wife with whom I could share this new dimension to my faith.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 06:22:29 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14062 on: January 12, 2017, 06:30:15 PM »
I could write a book on this subject.  There are so many things I could say about my relationship with God.

Up until my mid twenties, I thought I knew all about God.  I went to church, attended the sacraments, said my prayers.  I may have known about God, but God brought me into a situation in which I came to know Him, not just know about Him.

My experience was triggered by a priest inviting me to "Life in the Spirit" seminars which he said would change your life.  But I did not want my life to be changed - I was quite happy with a good circle of friends, a good job, my own house and a brand new silver TR7 with a soft top and what I felt to be strong faith.  But I felt curious and was drawn to these seminars (despite misgivings about leaving my TR7 in a rough council estate during dark November evenings).  It really was a life changing experience.  I invited the Holy Spirit into my life and discovered a God who loved me.  Reading scriptures became a new experience as deeper and deeper meanings were revealed.  Music became a powerful prayer, and when I volunteered to play guitar I was teamed up with my future wife!  Since then I have had a wonderful prayer partner in my lovely wife with whom I could share this new dimension to my faith.

That doesn't answer the questione about you may have just made a mistake about it.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14063 on: January 12, 2017, 06:33:56 PM »
I have peace and bliss in my life, Alan. It came when I stopped trying to pretend I 'knew God', stopped trying to ignore the parts of the Bible that didn't fit with a God of love, stopped trying to excuse the suffering created apparently by the God of mercy, and finally grew up.

I found lying to myself as exhausting. Much more peaceful just to let it go.
Welcome back!

I must just confirm that there is absolutely no pretence in me being able to say that I know God.  You seem to be very happy, but I believe no one is complete without God.

 And may I wish you a very happy new year.  :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14064 on: January 12, 2017, 06:41:27 PM »
Welcome back!

I must just confirm that there is absolutely no pretence in me being able to say that I know God.  You seem to be very happy, but I believe no one is complete without God.

 And may I wish you a very happy new year.  :)

Thank you, Alan, and a happy new year to you as well.  :)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14065 on: January 12, 2017, 06:44:15 PM »
I could write a book on this subject.  There are so many things I could say about my relationship with God.

Up until my mid twenties, I thought I knew all about God.  I went to church, attended the sacraments, said my prayers.  I may have known about God, but God brought me into a situation in which I came to know Him, not just know about Him.

My experience was triggered by a priest inviting me to "Life in the Spirit" seminars which he said would change your life.  But I did not want my life to be changed - I was quite happy with a good circle of friends, a good job, my own house and a brand new silver TR7 with a soft top and what I felt to be strong faith.  But I felt curious and was drawn to these seminars (despite misgivings about leaving my TR7 in a rough council estate during dark November evenings).  It really was a life changing experience.  I invited the Holy Spirit into my life and discovered a God who loved me.  Reading scriptures became a new experience as deeper and deeper meanings were revealed.  Music became a powerful prayer, and when I volunteered to play guitar I was teamed up with my future wife!  Since then I have had a wonderful prayer partner in my lovely wife with whom I could share this new dimension to my faith.
That's nice, why did you ignore the question asked?

Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14066 on: January 12, 2017, 07:50:54 PM »
Alan, I think once before you and I discussed the 'Life in the Spirit' seminars and I may have told you that I attended them in the mid-to-late 1990s;  I completed the whole course and at the time, Myles Dempsey presided over some of the meetings.

For anyone who hasn't heard of 'Life in the Spirit', here is some information:

http://www.ledburycatholicchurch.org.uk/lifeinthespirit.htm

There are some similarities with Alpha. 

Anyway, that is just for information in case anyone is interested.  I didn't know if the courses were still going but I see they are.  Apparently, Pope Francis is encouraging folk to take part in them.
---

You say that following this you knew God and have been asked if, in fact, you may have been mistaken which does happen with some people. 

I wonder if you can answer that, Alan.

'Life in the Spirit' and the charismatic meetings which followed do keep people on a bit of a high.  I wonder what happens if life takes a different turn and everything falls apart.  I've not talked to anyone about it since taking part myself.

Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14067 on: January 12, 2017, 09:05:51 PM »
I must just confirm that there is absolutely no pretence in me being able to say that I know God.
I don't consider it a pretence (i.e. a falsehood), just a massively overreaching claim expressive of personal belief but no more than that.
Quote
You seem to be very happy, but I believe no one is complete without God.
I don't for one second doubt that you mean well, Alan, and are sincere of heart; yet there is a particular kind of passive-aggressive ugliness and mean-spiritidness at work here, in my view. You feel that your existence isn't complete without God. So be it. Many people do, however. Their lives, in their estimation not yours, are rich, full and complete without believing in any gods. Yours wouldn't be. Rhiannon's is and so is mine. For us, as the great Freddie "The 'Tache" Nietzsche put it, there just isn't enough love and goodness in the world for us to get away with wasting these  things on imaginary entities. And all gods are, to my mind, perhaps subjectively useful emblems but objectively nonexistent.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14068 on: January 13, 2017, 07:11:38 AM »

I must just confirm that there is absolutely no pretence in me being able to say that I know God.


Tell us about him then.  What sort of sense of humour has he got for instance ?

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14069 on: January 13, 2017, 08:38:05 AM »
Now I have a very lame Depeche Mode song in my head. Not impressed.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14070 on: January 13, 2017, 09:35:30 AM »
AB,

Quote
I could write a book on this subject.  There are so many things I could say about my relationship with God.

Perhaps you could start with whether or not you do have a “relationship with God” rather than just a belief that you have one?

Quote
Up until my mid twenties, I thought I knew all about God.  I went to church, attended the sacraments, said my prayers.  I may have known about God, but God brought me into a situation in which I came to know Him, not just know about Him.

Again, I have no doubt that you believe that to be the case. The question though concerned how you ascertain that you’re not mistaken about that.

Quote
My experience was triggered by a priest inviting me to "Life in the Spirit" seminars which he said would change your life.  But I did not want my life to be changed - I was quite happy with a good circle of friends, a good job, my own house and a brand new silver TR7 with a soft top and what I felt to be strong faith.  But I felt curious and was drawn to these seminars (despite misgivings about leaving my TR7 in a rough council estate during dark November evenings).  It really was a life changing experience.  I invited the Holy Spirit into my life and discovered a God who loved me.  Reading scriptures became a new experience as deeper and deeper meanings were revealed.  Music became a powerful prayer, and when I volunteered to play guitar I was teamed up with my future wife!  Since then I have had a wonderful prayer partner in my lovely wife with whom I could share this new dimension to my faith.

You know I assume that there have been and continue to be countless people who have believed just as fervently as you and who have had just as profound life-changing experiences as yours but who think the causal agencies were gods you think to be false. Unless all gods are real, it’s demonstrably the case therefore that there’s no need at all for gods to be real for their believers to have experiences of the type you describe.

Now of itself that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re mistaken, but it does mean that your reply goes not one step toward answering the question about how you know that you’re not mistaken in your belief. No-one is suggesting that you’re trying to deceive anyone – it’s entirely possible that you’re honestly mistaken (and your inability to argue cogently for this “God” suggests that you may well be).

Can I suggest that you do some research into cognitive dissonance? Essentially it’s the holding of beliefs that cannot be shaken by the evidence that contradicts them. Typically the subject will either deny the evidence, or will change it so it appears to support his beliefs. The effect though is that a challenge – however well-founded – will often actually strengthen the belief rather than shake it, especially when the belief is central to someone’s identity. You seem to me to be an example of the phenomenon – evidence from the world of neuroscience is shown to you countless times, yet you persist with your “little man at the controls” claim supported by an apparently endless roster of logically false arguments.

Does this not concern you at all?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14071 on: January 13, 2017, 09:55:44 AM »
Tell us about him then.  What sort of sense of humour has he got for instance ?
Humour is God's invention!
I used to avoid music in church.  I would get up early to attend the 8am Mass which had no music.
After God made Himself known, I get asked to do things which are not my will, but God's.  One of those things was to arrange and lead the music during Mass!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14072 on: January 13, 2017, 10:03:58 AM »
That doesn't answer the questione about you may have just made a mistake about it.
I was trying to illustrate that God has made Himself known to me.  And I can't bring myself to doubt the existence of someone I know.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14073 on: January 13, 2017, 10:04:44 AM »
Humour is God's invention!

Does that include lavatorial humour? Or racist jokes, or homophobic jokes or sexist jokes?

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #14074 on: January 13, 2017, 10:05:18 AM »
I was trying to illustrate that God has made Himself known to me.  And I can't bring myself to doubt the existence of someone I know.

That doesn't answer the question either. So do you have an answer?