Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

I was trying to illustrate that God has made Himself known to me.  And I can't bring myself to doubt the existence of someone I know.

What is your knowledge based on?

[Alan Burns]

Does that include lavatorial humour? Or racist jokes, or homophobic jokes or sexist jokes?

These are classic examples of how we can use our free will to misuse God's gifts for purely selfish indulgence.

[Walter]

A very close friend of mine (we met aged 12) became a born again Christian in his early 50s, he became unbearable with his beliefs.  He was so obsessed with his relationship with god he told me he could feel his hand on his shoulders guiding him occasionally.
AT one point he so much wanted to see god and be with him he tried to take his own life with an overdose of gabapentin. He survived but was sectioned under the mental health act and held in a secure ward in a hospital .  Eventually his beliefs caused us to fall out after 40 odd years of friendship. He eventually died a couple of years ago of MS.
I miss him so much.

[Anchorman]

Tell us about him then.  What sort of sense of humour has he got for instance ?

Read Adrian Plass or Jeff Lucas.

[Rhiannon]

Read Adrian Plass or Jeff Lucas.

I've read Plass - nice chap - I've got his humour. Tells me nothing of God's though.

[Alan Burns]

What is your knowledge based on?

A combination of things:
Many answers to prayer.
Seeing how faith works in other people's lives.
Taking a step in faith by doing God's will, rather than my own, and then seeing the amazing fruits it brings.
A profound awareness of God's presence when I pray.
Many times during silent prayer, my wife and I get the same thoughts from God.
The deep meanings to life revealed through reading scripture.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Me (Reply 14072):

...supported by an apparently endless roster of logically false arguments

You (Reply 14082):

A combination of things:
Many answers to prayer.
Seeing how faith works in other people's lives.
Taking a step in faith by doing God's will, rather than my own, and then seeing the amazing fruits it brings.
A profound awareness of God's presence when I pray.
Many times during silent prayer, my wife and I get the same thoughts from God.
The deep meanings to life revealed through reading scripture.

QED

[floo]

The god of the Bible and humour? Hmmmmmmmmmmm I can't work that one out!

[Walter]

Read Adrian Plass or Jeff Lucas.

I've jus watched Jeff Lucas on YouTube, he is an excellent speaker of bollox!

[Rhiannon]

A combination of things:
Many answers to prayer.
Seeing how faith works in other people's lives.
Taking a step in faith by doing God's will, rather than my own, and then seeing the amazing fruits it brings.
A profound awareness of God's presence when I pray.
Many times during silent prayer, my wife and I get the same thoughts from God.
The deep meanings to life revealed through reading scripture.

This isn't knowledge. These are feelings, the natural unfolding of events, unsurprising coincidences
and giving things extra layers of meaning for which there is no evidence.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Me (Reply 14072):

    ...supported by an apparently endless roster of logically false arguments

You (Reply 14082):

    A combination of things:
    Many answers to prayer.
    Seeing how faith works in other people's lives.
    Taking a step in faith by doing God's will, rather than my own, and then seeing the amazing fruits it brings.
    A profound awareness of God's presence when I pray.
    Many times during silent prayer, my wife and I get the same thoughts from God.
    The deep meanings to life revealed through reading scripture.

QED

Do you seriously think that your alternative arguments from the world of neuroscience  (ie deterministic chemical activity in the brain which correlates with, but does not define our thoughts) are sufficient to dismiss my knowledge of God to be false?
My reasons for knowing God's existence may not be absolute proofs in your eyes, but your faith in what can be achieved solely by deterministic neurological activity in our physical brain cells is certainly not a "QED" in my eyes.

[Walter]

You (Reply 14082):QED

Do you seriously think that your alternative arguments from the world of neuroscience  (ie deterministic chemical activity in the brain which correlates with, but does not define our thoughts) are sufficient to dismiss my knowledge of God to be false?
My reasons for knowing God's existence may not be absolute proofs in your eyes, but your faith in what can be achieved solely by deterministic neurological activity in our physical brain cells is certainly not a "QED" in my eyes.

if your god is there , why don't I know him?

[Alan Burns]

if your god is there , why don't I know him?

Have you seriously tried asking Him that question?

[Shaker]

After God made Himself known, I get asked to do things which are not my will, but God's ... Taking a step in faith by doing God's will, rather than my own

One of the most chilling and dangerous phrases I know of - the ultimate excuse, the ultimate cop-out, the ultimate shirking of personal responsibility.

[Walter]

Have you seriously tried asking Him that question?

surely its for him to make himself known to me, if he is all you say he is.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Do you seriously think that your alternative arguments from the world of neuroscience  (ie deterministic chemical activity in the brain which correlates with, but does not define our thoughts) are sufficient to dismiss my knowledge of God to be false?

“…correlates with, but does not define our thoughts” is meaningless, and (again) so far it’s only your belief that you have “knowledge of God”. But no – no-one claims that the evidence that contradicts your faith beliefs of itself means that those beliefs are wrong. Just as a stuck clock is right twice a day, so your belief in “God” could be well-founded just as a matter of dumb luck. What is being said though is that the evidence from neuroscience takes us a long way toward understanding consciousness, whereas terms like “soul” are effectively white noise and so have no explanatory power whatever.

My reasons for knowing God's existence….

Believing you know Alan, believing you know…

…may not be absolute proofs in your eyes…

The problem isn’t that they’re not “absolute” proof at all – rather it’s that they’re not proof of even the flimsiest kind. A moment’s thought will tell you that the list of reasons you posted have perfectly simple non-divine explanations, and moreover that they land you with the problem of people saying exactly the same things about their beliefs in gods you think to be entirely false. Does that mean that those gods are not false, or that your reasons are bad ones? There is no other option.

…but your faith in what can be achieved solely by neurological activity in our physical brain cells is certainly not a "QED" in my eyes.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. I merely suggest that explanations built on observation, testing, theories with predictive capabilities etc have a track record of being epistemically hugely more successful than faith beliefs – whether yours or anyone else’s.

I notice by the way that you’ve ignored Reply 14072. Oh well.   

[Shaker]

Many answers to prayer.

Confirmation bias. Chalk up the 'hits', ignore/gloss over the misses. What's going on when prayers are not answered, or answered not to your liking? You simply say that God knows best. In other words you ensure that your hypothesis is unfalsifiable - prayer answered, thank you God! Prayer not answered - you know best, God! There no state of affairs which disproves your God hypothesis because you don't permit it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

One of the most chilling and dangerous phrases I know of - the ultimate excuse, the ultimate cop-out, the ultimate shirking of personal responsibility.

Indeed – it’s been the defence of the theocratic dictator through the ages, and for that matter for the suicide bomber too: “It’s not me wot flew that ‘plane into a building Guv – God made me do it” etc.

What can’t you justify I wonder if you seriously think an all-knowing god is at the controls?

[Gordon]

You (Reply 14082):QED

Do you seriously think that your alternative arguments from the world of neuroscience  (ie deterministic chemical activity in the brain which correlates with, but does not define our thoughts) are sufficient to dismiss my knowledge of God to be false?

Leaving side the personal incredulity aspect of what you say, and that your claim to knowledge is unjustified, perhaps you can advise on what you think would falsify your God claim.

My reasons for knowing God's existence may not be absolute proofs in your eyes, but your faith in what can be achieved solely by deterministic neurological activity in our physical brain cells is certainly not a "QED" in my eyes.

Which is a straw man.

[Enki]

Humour is God's invention!
I used to avoid music in church.  I would get up early to attend the 8am Mass which had no music.
After God made Himself known, I get asked to do things which are not my will, but God's.  One of those things was to arrange and lead the music during Mass!

I don't recall Jesus having much of a sense of humour, as He is portrayed in the Gospels.

[Rhiannon]

I don't recall Jesus having much of a sense of humour, as He is portrayed in the Gospels.

People make Jesus in their image, or at least in the image of the things and people they love and admire. Someone who values humour projects humour onto Jesus - 'it's just that nobody bothered writing his jokes down, that's all.'

[Shaker]

Shakes,
 

Indeed – it’s been the defence of the theocratic dictator through the ages, and for that matter for the suicide bomber too: “It’s not me wot flew that ‘plane into a building Guv – God made me do it” etc.

What can’t you justify I wonder if you seriously think an all-knowing god is at the controls?

You're not wrong.

The person who says "I think ..." or "It's my opinion that ..." can, at least in principle, be reasoned with. You can offer alternative scenarios, suggest other possibilities. Humans are fallible creatures, subject to bias unless they're extremely and scrupulously careful and always working with partial, limited information. "I think" operates on that basis. However, when "I think" becomes "Not my will, not my doing, but the will of the Creator of the Universe Himself", all bets are off. This is someone pretending to superhuman knowledge.

When "I think" becomes "God says", trouble is never far away.

[Rhiannon]

Is there that much difference? Studies have shown that it's very hard to nudge people from their 'I think' position, even when reasoned with and presented with evidence, possibly because 'I think' is usually has underneath it 'I feel', and we are feelings-driven creatures on the whole.

[Anchorman]

The god of the Bible and humour? Hmmmmmmmmmmm I can't work that one out!

Why not?
Since Christians - well, most of us, anyway, accept Christ Jesus as Lord, then, yes, humour, a very human concept, was shared by Him.
Do you think He went around with His followers like a Jehovah Witness in a black pudding factory?

[Shaker]

Why not?
Since Christians - well, most of us, anyway, accept Christ Jesus as Lord, then, yes, humour, a very human concept, was shared by Him.

Surely that's a prime example of what Rhiannon mentioned, making Jesus in your own image based on what you value. Of course a Jesus with a sense of humour is an attractive picture, because people (well, most people - I have my doubts about one or two ...) value humour as a positive and agreeable trait that makes life better. It's going far outside of such evidence as we have, though.