Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have pointed this out to you several times:

Since emergent properties are entirely dependent on the physical activity of whatever they emerge from, any emergent property must be able to be defined in physical terms.  No one has been able to define how conscious awareness works in physical terms, so you cannot just assume that it is an emergent property.

First, there’s a great deal more understanding of consciousness than you think. Second though, consciousness is entirely consistent with the phenomenon of emergence. Just ignoring that and poofing into existence a little man at the controls you call “soul” that’s a notion full of inconsistencies and contradictions requires many more assumptions than sticking with the phenomenon we actually know about.

The difficulty comes in having to define a recipient of information in terms of physical reactions, which ends up going round in circles because perception is not definable as a reaction.

No that’s not “the difficulty” at all because it relies entirely on a Cartesian mind/body separation that’s long since been discounted.

I have to maintain that conscious awareness is a property of the spiritual "you".  And of course you are unable to prove this by scientific analysis which by definition is limited to what can be discovered by physical investigation.  But the evidence for these spiritual properties lies in your awareness of your own existence, and your ability to consciously choose your own destiny.

Which is just yet another re-statement of your argument from personal incredulity.

Why bother as it’s so hopeless?

[torridon]

Our choice can be influenced, but not dictated by logic, instinct and experience.  Ultimately we have manual override on the choices we make by the spiritual property known as "will".  And it is certainly not random.

Either a choice is made for a reason or it is not.  If it is not made for any reason then it is random.  If it is made for a reason, then there you have cause and effect - the reason is the cause and the choice is the effect.  It's difficult to see how we can make this any simpler for you.

[Stranger]

Our choice can be influenced, but not dictated by logic, instinct and experience.  Ultimately we have manual override on the choices we make by the spiritual property known as "will".  And it is certainly not random.

Please try to concentrate. I'm not talking about making logical decisions, I am examining the logical constraints of any decision making entity. Decisions have to be made somehow - using some process (even if you call it "free will", "instinct" or "experience") - and that process can only consist of deterministic steps or random ones. Random means not determined - there is no third option.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

Please try to concentrate. I'm not talking about making logical decisions, I am examining the logical constraints of any decision making entity. Decisions have to be made somehow - using some process (even if you call it "free will", "instinct" or "experience") - and that process can only consist of deterministic steps or random ones. Random means not determined - there is no third option.

You've forgotten AB's explanation: it's magic innit.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

It's difficult to see how we can make this any simpler for you.

Crayon?

[Shaker]

torri,

Crayon?

You're a bad lad 

[Alan Burns]

Random means not determined - there is no third option.

The third option is simply a means of making a conscious choice which is not the inevitable consequence of a chain of "cause and effect" which started with the Big Bang.  Every healthy human being can choose their own destiny, because their conscious awareness has the ability to interact with this physical world by implementing acts of human free will.

[Alan Burns]

Either a choice is made for a reason or it is not.  If it is not made for any reason then it is random.  If it is made for a reason, then there you have cause and effect - the reason is the cause and the choice is the effect.  It's difficult to see how we can make this any simpler for you.

It all depends on the definition of "reason"
The dictionary definition is:
A cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.

This is not limited to physical reaction to a previous event.  The cause of an event can be unidentifiable in physical terms, as quantum physics has shown.

So if a conscious choice is initiated by the spiritual soul, it will indeed have a reason, but not necessarily caused by a previous physical event.

[Stranger]

The third option is simply a means of making a conscious choice which is not the inevitable consequence of a chain of "cause and effect" which started with the Big Bang.

Every event, including every decision, must be a result of deterministic and/or random causes. Not random is determined and not determined is random. Just ignoring that logic and insisting that "conscious choice" is neither, is childish contradiction, not an argument.

Every healthy human being can choose their own destiny, because their conscious awareness has the ability to interact with this physical world by implementing acts of human free will.

Repeating your illogical, blind faith dogma, does not make it true.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The third option is simply a means of making a conscious choice which is not the inevitable consequence of a chain of "cause and effect" which started with the Big Bang.  Every healthy human being can choose their own destiny, because their conscious awareness has the ability to interact with this physical world by implementing acts of human free will.

Translation: magic.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The third option is simply a means of making...

And the fourth option is a little man at the controls of the little man at the controls.

And the fifth option is a little man at the controls of the little man at the controls of the little man at the controls.

And the sixth option is...

Fun this innit, just making up mad explanations that turn out to have no explanatory power at all.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

And the fourth option is a little man at the controls of the little man at the controls.

And the fifth option is a little man at the controls of the little man at the controls of the little man at the controls.

And the sixth option is...

Fun this innit, just making up mad explanations that turn out to have no explanatory power at all.

You only need one conscious controller to drive a biological machine.

[Shaker]

Who controls the controller?

[Alan Burns]

Every event, including every decision, must be a result of deterministic and/or random causes. Not random is determined and not determined is random. Just ignoring that logic and insisting that "conscious choice" is neither, is childish contradiction, not an argument.

You appear not to have read or acknowledged my post #14309 which answers this point.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You only need one conscious controller to drive a biological machine.

But if you want to make up a "conscious controller", why can't I make up a conscious controller in control of that conscious controller too?

[Alan Burns]

Who controls the controller?

You are the controller, not the unguided aimless forces of nature.

[Shaker]

You appear not to have read or acknowledged my post #14309 which answers this point.

Other people can be every bit as evasive and selective in what they answer as you, Alan. Fair's fair, right?

[Shaker]

You are the controller, not the unguided aimless forces of nature.

Evidence?

And exactly why are you so disturbed by unguided and aimless forces?

[Sebastian Toe]

You only need one conscious controller to drive a biological machine.

Even if you only  need  one, why can't there be more than one?

[torridon]

It all depends on the definition of "reason"
The dictionary definition is:
A cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.

This is not limited to physical reaction to a previous event.  The cause of an event can be unidentifiable in physical terms, as quantum physics has shown.

'Unidentifiable', correct, in so far as it might not always be easy to identify the prior reason for choices that we make.  Sometimes we do things for no apparent reason, but it can be a problem of computation rather than a problem of concept to trace the line of cause and effect back through the unfathomably complex workings of a brain.  Spare a moment to consider the computational magnitude underpinning what we experience as feelings and thoughts - it has been estimated that a human brain in a single second executes as many 'instructions' as the total digital computing resource of the entire planet as at 2007 with 100 trillion data points in cache memory.  So it is not easy and simple to trace the line of cause and effect through the workings of a mind

'Unidentifiable', in the sense that there may be some truly random element in the mix thanks to some base aspect of quantum reality, perhaps we can't rule that out but if that is the case then the resulting choice is also random.

A choice is either due to cause and effect or it is random; take your pick
 

So if a conscious choice is initiated by the spiritual soul, it will indeed have a reason, but not necessarily caused by a previous physical event.

Invoking some or other unevidenced make-believe makes not a jot of difference to the issue.  I am writing these words now not because I want to but because my pet magic dragon told me to and he knows everything and he really wanted me to write them for reasons unknowable to me.  All I am doing here is routing my chain of cause and effect through some alleged other realm of reality and that is all you are doing too. A choice is still the determined outcome of a chain of cause and effect or it is random; take your pick.

[Stranger]

You appear not to have read or acknowledged my post #14309 which answers this point.

No, it did not. That was just yet another restatement of you misunderstanding and blind dogma.

For example:

So if a conscious choice is initiated by the spiritual soul, it will indeed have a reason, but not necessarily caused by a previous physical event.

The point is that moving the 'reason' or cause out of the physical and into the 'spiritual' makes no difference at all to the nature of 'free will'. Either a decision is determined (by physical and/or 'spiritual' events), it is random, or it is a combination.

[Alan Burns]

'Unidentifiable', correct, in so far as it might not always be easy to identify the prior reason for choices that we make.  Sometimes we do things for no apparent reason, but it can be a problem of computation rather than a problem of concept to trace the line of cause and effect back through the unfathomably complex workings of a brain.  Spare a moment to consider the computational magnitude underpinning what we experience as feelings and thoughts - it has been estimated that a human brain in a single second executes as many 'instructions' as the total digital computing resource of the entire planet as at 2007 with 100 trillion data points in cache memory.  So it is not easy and simple to trace the line of cause and effect through the workings of a mind

'Unidentifiable', in the sense that there may be some truly random element in the mix thanks to some base aspect of quantum reality, perhaps we can't rule that out but if that is the case then the resulting choice is also random.

A choice is either due to cause and effect or it is random; take your pick
 
Invoking some or other unevidenced make-believe makes not a jot of difference to the issue.  I am writing these words now not because I want to but because my pet magic dragon told me to and he knows everything and he really wanted me to write them for reasons unknowable to me.  All I am doing here is routing my chain of cause and effect through some alleged other realm of reality and that is all you are doing too. A choice is still the determined outcome of a chain of cause and effect or it is random; take your pick.

A conscious choice is not random.  If David Hamilton were to make a random choice about overtaking, he would not last long - and it is difficult to see how such a choice could be made sub consciously before he became aware of it.  As I said earlier, a conscious choice can be influenced by perceived data in the brain, but the action needed to invoke the choice is made by the conscious self.  We are not automated robots - we have the freedom to choose.

[Alan Burns]

Even if you only  need  one, why can't there be more than one?

I think you are now entering the realm of schizophrenia 

[Stranger]

A conscious choice is not random.

I don't think anybody suggested that it is. It might have a random element but to the extent it is not random, it is determined.

Not random = Determined

[Alan Burns]

And exactly why are you so disturbed by unguided and aimless forces?

Not disturbed.  Just being realistic about what they can and can't achieve.  Do you honestly believe that you are being driven by chains of unguided cause and effect which began with the Big Bang?.  If not then you have to admit that there is something from outside this unguided chain which is guiding you.  Could it possibly be "you"?