Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

If you look back you will find that I provided alternative explanations...

What utter nonsense.

You haven't provided a single explanation of anything at all. All you have said is that your magic 'soul' does all the stuff you think (without any proper justification) can't be done by the brain. When asked for any details (for example, is it deterministic? - which was your own objection to the brain) you have 'misunderstood' or avoided.

[Nearly Sane]

Although I don't support everything that Alan says, I do try to see things from his angle.  I don't think he is a complete science denier but does try to challenge it within the constraints of his belief system.  His motto is 'The Truth will set you free' and unfortunately this means that it will set you free from belief.  As regards 'choice', this is likely to be determined by, amongst other things, beliefs held including possibly that what we might declare as random, is the Will of God.  The 'free' choice then becomes choosing between those determined by what can loosely be called the contents of the self centred psyche or those determined by his God.  The destination is a heavenly state which is ever present but clarity of 'vision' and purity of 'heart' are the requirements for the experience.

except that choice is then determined so there is no choice

[Gordon]

If you look back you will find that I provided alternative explanations for all these scenarios showing how the spiritual properties of the human soul can provide the reality we perceive.

You produced a bunch of fallacious assertions: and they don't count, except of course as warnings to the hard of thinking about what happens when religious 'faith' gets in the way of routine reasoning.

The frontal cortex and emergent property explanations derive from uncontrolled deterministic events which do not fully explain our abilities to consciously control and manipulate and choose.  These material entities play a part, but so does the soul.

And the fallacy-bandwagon rolls on.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

Although I don't support everything that Alan says, I do try to see things from his angle.  I don't think he is a complete science denier but does try to challenge it within the constraints of his belief system.

No, he just ignores it. He (presumably) accepts science when he needs to take a Paracetamol, but he ignores or denies it when it provides answers he doesn’t like. He’s also incidentally entirely indifferent to logic and to truthfulness – presumably because he thinks he knows – really, really knows – that Jesus loves him, so those things become second order matters that he can trash or co-opt (albeit incompetently) as he pleases.

[torridon]

But have they finished searching?
Will they eventually find God?
I hope and pray that they will.

If they cannot find God then surely that is by God's will; if he is determined to hide then humans have no power to force his hand.  It seems you are not aligned with God's will in wishing and praying for outcomes that he apparently does not want.

Just one more from your panoply of self-contradictory positions.

[Alan Burns]

except that choice is then determined so there is no choice

But what is it that determines the choice?
Is it pre determined by uncontrolled electro chemical activity?
Or does our conscious awareness have the ability to interact?

[Alan Burns]

If they cannot find God then surely that is by God's will; if he is determined to hide then humans have no power to force his hand.  It seems you are not aligned with God's will in wishing and praying for outcomes that he apparently does not want.

God wants His people to turn to Him using their own free will.
If He forces us we become just puppets.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Or does our conscious awareness have the ability to interact?

That's a non-question, for reasons that have been explained to you many times but you just ignore.

[Stranger]

But what is it that determines the choice?
Is it pre determined by uncontrolled electro chemical activity?
Or does our conscious awareness have the ability to interact?

Yet again: is this "conscious awareness" deterministic?

If so, what's its point?

If not, how does randomness (not deterministic) help with 'free will'?

[Nearly Sane]

But what is it that determines the choice?
Is it pre determined by uncontrolled electro chemical activity?
Or does our conscious awareness have the ability to interact?

If it is determined, as has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions which you dishonestly ignore, it makes no difference. Determined means there is no choice, no freedom, only one way of it happening..

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

It seems you are not aligned with God's will in wishing and praying for outcomes that he apparently does not want.

Heretic!

[Stranger]

God wants His people to turn to Him using their own free will.
If He forces us we become just puppets.

How does hiding help with that?

[Nearly Sane]

If they cannot find God then surely that is by God's will; if he is determined to hide then humans have no power to force his hand.  It seems you are not aligned with God's will in wishing and praying for outcomes that he apparently does not want.

Just one more from your panoply of self-contradictory positions.

It should also be noted in the past that Alan has claimed his god made himself known to Akan in a way that he had NO CHOICE but to accept. He, however, then dishonestly avoids the conclusions of that statement.

[ekim]

except that choice is then determined so there is no choice

... or the choice between two determining factors.

[torridon]

God wants His people to turn to Him using their own free will.
If He forces us we become just puppets.

Read the thread.  That comment hardly accounts for people who seek using their 'free will' but do not find, does it ?

[Nearly Sane]

God wants His people to turn to Him using their own free will.
If He forces us we become just puppets.

You have said in the past that your god made itself known to you in a way that you had no choice but to accept, why are you contradicting yourself?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

That's a non-question, for reasons that have been explained to you many times but you just ignore.

But the explanations you give may fit in with human scientific discoveries to date, but they do not fit with my perception of reality.

And every post you make is further evidence of your conscious interaction (not just inevitable reaction) with this world.

[Alan Burns]

You have said in the past that your god made itself known to you in a way that you had no choice but to accept, why are you contradicting yourself?

But I did have the choice to seek God in the first place.

[Nearly Sane]

But I did have the choice to seek God in the first place.

How, if it was determined would you gave a choice?

[Nearly Sane]

... or the choice between two determining factors.

if it is determined, there is no choice. It will happen the way it happens . my not believing in god(s) is just as determined as Alan's position but he believes that to be some kind of failing. It's an illogical, even if determined, position

[Stranger]

But the explanations you give may fit in with human scientific discoveries to date, but they do not fit with my perception of reality.

So.......?

And every post you make is further evidence of your conscious interaction (not just inevitable reaction) with this world.

You have yet to give any sort of basic logical distinction between a very complex reaction (not only to what is happening now but also to an entire lifetime's experience and initial state) and this interaction of which you speak.

And the fact remains that even with your 'soul' - it still actually has to boil down to a reaction - unless it has some random input.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But the explanations you give may fit in with human scientific discoveries to date, but they do not fit with my perception of reality.

Clearly. Your perception though is just that - your perception. It collapses in a heap immediately someone else brings rationality to it, and it offers you no means whatever to evangelise for it to other people.   

And every post you make is further evidence of your conscious interaction (not just inevitable reaction) with this world.

Still flat wrong still for reasons that have been explained to you but you just ignore.

[SusanDoris]

If you look back you will find that I provided alternative explanations for all these scenarios showing how the spiritual properties of the human soul can provide the reality we perceive.  The frontal cortex and emergent property explanations derive from uncontrolled deterministic events which do not fully explain our abilities to consciously control and manipulate and choose.  These material entities play a part, but so does the soul.

You read excellent posts by bluehillside and others then come back with an answer that is rubbish and, in my opinion, reveals a level of complacency and conceit that shows a mind totally closed to reality. 


... and couched in suffocatingly, cloying prose.  Well, that's what I think! I learn from the rational posters all the time fortunately.

[wigginhall]

But have they finished searching?
Will they eventually find God?
I hope and pray that they will.

This is a cop-out.   There are various people on this forum who have stated that they looked for God/Jesus, and didn't find anything.   All you can say is the above rubbish?   How you can live in this state of denial, beats me.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This is a cop-out.   There are various people on this forum who have stated that they looked for God/Jesus, and didn't find anything.   All you can say is the above rubbish?   How you can live in this state of denial, beats me.

But Wigginhall there may be people who have not finished their search.
And again why should we give those non finders conclusion primacy over those who have found Jesus?
There is a curious lack of interest in the methodology which those who didn't find Christ come to their subsequent conclusion that he is not there to find.