Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

if it is determined, there is no choice. It will happen the way it happens . my not believing in god(s) is just as determined as Alan's position but he believes that to be some kind of failing. It's an illogical, even if determined, position

But to label something as illogical involves conscious perception, thought, interaction and choice.
If every event is pre determined, can the concept of "illogical" even exist?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

Clearly. Your perception though is just that - your perception. It collapses in a heap immediately someone else brings rationality to it, and it offers you no means whatever to evangelise for it to other people.   

Still flat wrong still for reasons that have been explained to you but you just ignore.

Hillside. I am enjoying your latest bit of science fiction....or should that be scientism fiction set in a world where atheism is equated with science and the hard question of consciousness has been settled.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

This is a cop-out.   There are various people on this forum who have stated that they looked for God/Jesus, and didn't find anything.   All you can say is the above rubbish?   How you can live in this state of denial, beats me.

Quite. He also tells us both that he went looking for "God" (implying that others didn't look hard enough) and at the same time that this god found him. Be nice if he made his mind up either way.

Incidentally, this looking thing is a bit odd anyway isn't it. Don't you need a reason first to think that there's something to look for at all (otherwise we'd all be out looking for unicorns), and besides several here have told us that they weren't looking for anything - this God they think just paid them a call one day out of the blue. Vlad I think is one such.   

[wigginhall]

But Wigginhall there may be people who have not finished their search.
And again why should we give those non finders conclusion primacy over those who have found Jesus?
There is a curious lack of interest in the methodology which those who didn't find Christ come to their subsequent conclusion that he is not there to find.

It's a basic flaw in AB's approach, since he treats his own experience with reverence.   But other people's experiences are dismissed.   

[Stranger]

If every event is pre determined, can the concept of "illogical" even exist?

Do you have anything remotely resembling a reasonable argument that it can't?

Since the only alternative to every event being predetermined is adding some randomness, how would that help?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Hillside. I am enjoying your latest bit of science fiction....or should that be scientism fiction set in a world where atheism is equated with science and the hard question of consciousness has been settled.

Not sure why you're lying about that, but if it makes you happy...

[Alan Burns]

and besides several here have told us that they weren't looking for anything - this God they think just paid them a call one day out of the blue.

One has to wonder why so many non believers are attracted to post on this "Searching for God" thread?  Could God be helping them to come to know Him through the witness of others, even though they appear to be in denial of searching for Him?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

If every event is pre determined, can the concept of "illogical" even exist?

Yes - you're just making Vlad's straw man mistake of assuming claims of universal truths. Il/logic is fine within the working paradigm of a materialistic reality. You can assert the immaterial if you want to, but then all bets are off re saying anything about that perception.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Wiggs,

Quite. He also tells us both that he went looking for "God" (implying that others didn't look hard enough) and at the same time that this god found him. Be nice if he made his mind up either way.

Incidentally, this looking thing is a bit odd anyway isn't it. Don't you need a reason first to think that there's something to look for at all (otherwise we'd all be out looking for unicorns), and besides several here have told us that they weren't looking for anything - this God they think just paid them a call one day out of the blue. Vlad I think is one such.

I don't agree.
Alan is rather benign in his vision of people not having yet found God. Alan hasn't yet proposed a scenario yet that isn't found in the human condition. Unconscious knowledge of Things not yet conscious,
Not looking for the right thing, missing the point, being half way there ......are all human experiences.
..........to which I would have to add avoidance of true desire.

Of course a rejection of these as applying in the case of God is an act of special pleading on your part based on your commitment to the hard atheist position.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

One has to wonder why so many non believers are attracted to post on this "Searching for God" thread?  Could God be helping them to come to know Him through the witness of others, even though they appear to be in denial of searching for Him?

Yes, "God" could be. OrZeus. Or Allah. Or maybe it's the way unicorns communicate so that, once converted, we'll feed them Cadbury's Creme Eggs. Anything in fact could be.

Your problem though is that making very bad arguments for the possibility doesn't make the one you happen to prefer any more likely than any of the others. Sadly, that's the way just guessing about stuff works.

[Alan Burns]

.....  but then all bets are off re saying anything about that perception.

Are you implying that perception is somehow different to mere physical reaction?

[Maeght]

But to label something as illogical involves conscious perception, thought, interaction and choice.
If every event is pre determined, can the concept of "illogical" even exist?

Oh Alan - you keep saying such things but have no way of distinguishing whether there is a free choice (how ever that would actually work - something else you've never explained) or just the appearance of choice which is actually deterministic. Quoting things which might just be an apparent choice but not really doesn't help your argument.

[Nearly Sane]

But to label something as illogical involves conscious perception, thought, interaction and choice.
If every event is pre determined, can the concept of "illogical" even exist?

No, that's begging the question again in the first sentence, and then showing a lack of understanding of logic in the second.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I don't agree.

Alan is rather benign in his vision of people not having yet found God. Alan hasn't yet proposed a scenario yet that isn't found in the human condition.

Depends what you mean by “scenario”, but yes – lots of people have believed in lots of gods over the millennia if that’s what you mean.

Unconscious knowledge of God not yet conscious,

That’s an abuse of the term “knowledge”, and the reification fallacy to boot. “Belief” is the word you were looking for.

Not looking for the right thing, missing the point, being half way there ......are all human experiences.

Which has nothing to do with the point – ie, that (presumably) you need to think there’s something to look for before you go looking for it.

..........to which I would have to add avoidance of true desire.

If that means something in your head, then you’re welcome to add it if you like. No idea why though – what’s the difference between “desire” and wishful thinking?

Of course a rejection of these as applying in the case of God is an act of special pleading on your part based on your commitment to the hard atheist position.

And he rounds off with a non sequitur. There’s no “of course” about it as identifying broken reasoning for “God” isn’t special pleading at all.

Incidentally, as the Wiki references to naturalism etc you though supported you turned out to do the opposite of that but you’ve just ignored the slam dunk rebuttal a few posts back, should we take your silence since to be acquiescence?

[Stranger]

Not looking for the right thing, missing the point, being half way there ......are all human experiences.
..........to which I would have to add avoidance of true desire.

Why would a god make itself difficult to find? Assuming the Christian position that it's important to us that we do find it - and that this god actually gives a toss. Why wouldn't it make itself bleedin' obvious so we could all make a properly informed choice...?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Depends what you mean by “scenario”, but yes – lots of people have believed in lots of gods over the millennia if that’s what you mean.

That’s an abuse of the term “knowledge”, and the reification fallacy to boot. “Belief” is the word you were looking for.

Which has nothing to do with the point – ie, that (presumably) you need to think there’s something to look for before you go looking for it.

If that means something in your head, then you’re welcome to add it if you like. No idea why though – what’s the difference between “desire” and wishful thinking?

And he rounds off with a non sequitur. There’s no “of course” about it as identifying broken reasoning for “God” isn’t special pleading at all.

Incidentally, as the Wiki references to naturalism etc you though supported you turned out to do the opposite of that but you’ve just ignored the slam dunk rebuttal a few posts back, should we take your silence since to be acquiescence?

Sorry "knowledge of God" should have read "knowledge of things".

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Are you implying that perception is somehow different to mere physical reaction?

No, I was referring to your perception that there is an immaterial - and explaining that, once you assert it, you can populate it with any claim you like. Whether those claims are logical, honest, contradictory, different from one minute to the next etc doesn't matter - it's all immaterial innit so anything goes - which presumably explains your behaviour here.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Incidentally, as the Wiki references to naturalism etc you though supported you turned out to do the opposite of that but you’ve just ignored the slam dunk rebuttal a few posts back, should we take your silence since to be acquiescence?

Rebuttal?
I have said that I go by the Wikipedia definitions of philosophical materialism, physicalist, naturalism.
What then is being rebutted?
I did notice some spurious link to methodological materialism by you but I accept the definition as laid down by Wikipedia.
Also I bid readers to look at these definitions rather than have them pre edited by myself.......unlike you.

[Rhiannon]

If God is so ridiculous one wonders why Hillside and his little wizards feel it necessary to deploy squadrons of leprechauns.

You do realise this is shooting yourself in the foot, right?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Rebuttal?
I have said that I go by the Wikipedia definitions of philosophical materialism, physicalist, naturalism.
What then is being rebutted?
I did notice some spurious link to methodological materialism by you but I accept the definition as laid down by Wikipedia.
Also I bid readers to look at these definitions rather than have them pre edited by myself.......unlike you.

Dishonesty noted.

Still, if you cut and paste the rebuttal for easy reference you'll be able to find it again the next time you feel like essaying the philosophical/methodological naturalism stupidity in which you were so invested.

You're welcome.

[torridon]

One has to wonder why so many non believers are attracted to post on this "Searching for God" thread?  Could God be helping them to come to know Him through the witness of others, even though they appear to be in denial of searching for Him?

More likely it is the urge to try to reason with the unreasonable. 

[SusanDoris]

One has to wonder why so many non believers are attracted to post on this "Searching for God" thread?  Could God be helping them to come to know Him through the witness of others, even though they appear to be in denial of searching for Him?

even slightly right about the
some of us wwould not want those who lurk and read to think that the believers might be even remotely right about the imagined entities they believe exist.

[torridon]

Are you implying that perception is somehow different to mere physical reaction?

The difference is in the order of magnitude of layered complexity.  It all boils down to forms of information exchange at the end of the day.

[Nearly Sane]

One has to wonder why so many non believers are attracted to post on this "Searching for God" thread?  Could God be helping them to come to know Him through the witness of others, even though they appear to be in denial of searching for Him?

Given the amount of lying you have done on this thread Alan, I find being called a liar by you as you do in the above post laughable.

[wigginhall]

Why would a god make itself difficult to find? Assuming the Christian position that it's important to us that we do find it - and that this god actually gives a toss. Why wouldn't it make itself bleedin' obvious so we could all make a properly informed choice...?

Yes, the old 'divine hiddenness' argument, much discussed.   There are tons of replies to it, ranging from blaming the seeker, (you aren't trying hard enough), to the mystical (God disappears so that creation can be), and of course, the free will argument, (God isn't going to make it easy for you).   It's connected with the argument from non-belief, i.e. that non-belief is reasonable, given the evidence, (lack of).